Help? Central European War Axe?

kronckew

kronckew

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Aug 17, 2003
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my axe appears to be similar to one listed at lutel.com, the czech replica makers, as a 'central european war axe 13-15c. rather vague. theirs, unlike mine, has the blade riveted to the socket and sharpened on all sides. can anyone shed any light to pin it down a bit more on area of origin and time frame, on mine? lutel must have gotten the design from somewhere, a museum or castle display?

cutting edge is quite sharp, convex. couple small nicks.lower rounded part is not sharp, neither is the back of the point, all rounded rather than flat. eye is enclosed rather than open. a silver pin is used to keep the head on. grip rings are copper, except the 'pommel' one is steel and open on the base where the strap ends were... sadly strap fell apart into powder as i unpacked it. haft has been varnished. three holes appear punched with a drift hammer and countersunk rather than drilled. no makers marks

weight is 1165 grams, or 2.56 lb. (or 41 oz.)
haft is 34.5 in. from tip of the socket to the pommel end. roughly 1 & 3/16 in. dia. at the socket, grip section 1 in. dia. in the grooves. socket 3 in. heavy steel pommel piece 2 in., edge is 8 & 5/8 in. top to bottom, roughly 4 in. across. the blade x-section tapers from the socket to the edge as a shallow triangle and is about 1/2 in. thick where it joins the socket, the join is nicely radiused.

appears to be a heavy weapon rather than a tool or parade axe.

thanks in advance for any info.

GermanicAxe Overall.jpg GermanicAxe (12).jpg GermanicAxe (3).jpg
 

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FWIW, the closest historical (presumably) example of that head shape that I found was on this image from a Russian forum (number 2, bottom left):

foto-360.jpg
 
It's kinda hasty to pronounce this to be an obvious 'fake'. After all it was posted on a "Czech replica-making site". It certainly looks to have 'been around the block' at few times (ceremonies, parades or stage plays?) or the makers have figured out a way to artificially age them. If this thing 'turns your crank', go for it. Just don't also expect it to be able to cut down trees or perform other 'axe-like- tasks that require a tempered blade and a sturdier handle.
 
In style, it appears to be a copy of a "Goose Wing" or "Miner's" axe , from memory they are from around the 1400-1500's in Europe .Although similar styles occur in other parts of Europe at other times, ie the axe associated with the Gallowglass was similar (although having a broader point).
 
There are several points I would like to comment on.

The heavy plate armor associated with the knights of 13-15th century were not the only type of armor encountered in Central Europe at the time.
The mongols and Ottoman Turks wore lamellar and/or mail armor and foot soldiers as well light cavalry were not heavily armored either.
The pole arms as well as the helmets and armor Kevin shows in the first picture above are more typical of the 16th century, some of those were in use until the 17th century.

I agree with Kevin that the OP’s axe is likely a modern replica and not an original weapon.
I don’t know if similar form and size axes were ever found in the archeological record, but I agree with Kevin that this particular axe is too heavy for a light axe and too light for a full sized battle axe.
Some elements of its appearance resemble real battle axes from the period.
Here is a replica of a Medieval battle axe from Central Europe:

http://myarmoury.com/review_aa_hungarian.html

How accurate and typical, I don’t know, but I have seen similar pieces in museums.

Stevel Tall has posted a nice illustration of (mostly) light battle axes from the 13th-15th centuries used by the Mongols and people living in the lands of Tatar Khaganates at the time (Volga-Kama Bulgars, Moldova, today’s South Ukraine). You see the typical fokos-like light battle axes as well as a few heavier axes as well, some with sockets.

My impression of the OP’s piece is that it looks more like a contemporary Pakistani or Indian made fantasy wall hanger, than an accurate replica of a Medieval Central European weapon. I am not saying that it was for sure made in Pakistan or India, just that it looks like one.
 
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An interesting book from 1870 (Weapons of War, by Auguste Demmin, tr. by C.C. Black) shows a bunch of historical examples, including these:

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The head shape of Number 17 (above) has some similar, but exaggerated, aspects (compared to the axe in question). This one looks like it's hafted to endure some serious impacts, compared to the "toilet plunger handles" on many of the other examples. (Now why am I thinking of toilet plungers?)
 
Yes,unfortunately,for many of the above stated reasons,that article is a fanciful fake...(if indeed posed as an "original",an artefact of any age).
My reasoning would be the cylindrical eye,very rarely if ever seen,but mostly that obviously modern,electrically-welded joint of eye and the blade....Thus even in general appearance the tool looks wrong...
There was,of course,not the practical,structural manner in which two parts could e reliably butt-joined....Forgewelding relying so heavily on sheer strengh in it's scarfing...

There's only one caveat:Indian subcontinent did indeed build,and used,a Myriad types of "battle-axe-shaped objects",many of questionable mechanical integrity;some used functionally(apparently),but many more strictly ritually...Like guarding someone's harem,or the like,in effect eing a form of Livery and a psychological weapon simultaneously...So possibly India,and Indian-weapons scholars are a lot apart.....

Steve,in post #11,has very astutely sensed the direction in which the fantasy of (possibly)our Pakistani master ran-that Breitaxt is similar in the way that the mass is displaced upwards...Note,however,the angular,boxy construction in that Breitaxt drawing(even as crude a sketch as it is).If you were looking at a close-up photo of the original,you'd be able to trace the construction details insuring the integrity of such a difficult proposition....possibly see the weld-seams,or intuit where those may've fallen IF visible....

The russian schematic in Steve's post #4 though is entirely ....erroneous...(as is evident by inclusion of obvious broad-axes in a table of "military" related objects...).
Russian materials of this sort are Particularly questionable,alas,the archaeology in that unhappy place have long been plagued by politics,lack of funding,misguided nationalism and just plain romantic vision....alas and alack.

Now i must make a clean breast of things(and an ass of myself,as usual),and say that Personally,as a smith,and a student of such things in general,i don't believe in there Ever being Any axes whose design was engendered by the military science....I truly believe that what axes that Were used in perpetrating violence against people were blatantly plagiarised from the woodworking tools of the day.
Mostly,they WERE the woodworking axes.
I'm too old and tired of arguing,but have spent years looking for,and finding holes,in such specious arguments as "war-axes were light","franciskas were throwing axes",and such tripe....I'm sorry.99% of it always comes down to the old and beat-up "absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"...But i've not heard a convincing argument yet....Though i did eventually find a working example for just about every type of axe ever claimed as a "battle-axe"...

Thousand apologies to all that i've ever offended,or may yet...(people are rather attached to the idea,beats me why...is war so much nicer than quality woodworking?).
 
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P.S.

i did a quick scan of Google images for Indian axes...These tubular eyes are very common,yet something about this particular object bothers me...
It isn't thin and chintzy,like most of that souvenir market,it's oddly voluminous...

Here's a possible inspiration for the like:https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Bardiche

It'd very much surprise me if it was a genuine historic artefact,but without some sort of expert analysis it's awfully hard to say....
(thanks, Kronckew, for such detailed photos...great job on all the angles...)
 
Thanks,Kevin,i'm sure that there's lots in what you're saying...

I do have a horrid tendency to doubt all Strictly military provenance of axes...(polearms,now,are Way beyond my ken...).
I suppose my view of history may in part be illustrated by this short passage:(it's to do with a French side-axe)

The term doloire is derived from the Latin dolabra, a tool axe used by Roman legionaries. Its alternative name wagoner's axe originates from the fact that it was found most often in the hands of a wagoner, the man in charge of the supply trains accompanying troops on the march. The wagoner used the axe not only as a tool for working and shaping wood and repairing or building carts and wooden structures but also as a weapon for self defense.
https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Doloire

Now,given a bit of Passion,and an ever slight Inaccuracy,can you only imagine what fearsome weapon one can create out of this?And it is very true that we all were young at one time,and loved envisaging attles et c...:)

(i know that i'm not being strictly fair or impartial myself...).

Inasmuch as the (cool-looking) Sparth axes above,this is what it makes me think of(not knowing Anything about them at all):At some point in the 14th to 16th c.c.,speaking VERY crudely,a number of Northern European governments have desired their citizenry to arm themselves with axes,to keep always at the home(much like Israeli citizens today are armed).
Now,an axe is something that is far from easy to forge,and an awfully impractical,poorly-/or rather altogether un-balanced object as a weapon,so don't ask me what was behind that law...
However,in Application of it,as these good burghers went to their local forges to obediently order their axe,what do you think happened?
As in,do you think that the smith,who for many generations has learned and practiced the forging of a certain Type(-s) of axe,probably for working down house timbers,or boatbuilding,et c.(because these things is what pays-they're steady,and constructive,vs any war materiel...:).
So,do you think that that smith would suddenly,magically,switch his methods,and his tooling,and that of the entire establishment,to create some (mythical,as no military or trade manuals of Middle Ages say a word about it) "battle"-pattern axe?!

These Sparth axes put me in mind of something that would be about perfect to split a side of beef down the middle(i use a sawsall to do moose and caribou and can only wish i had something like that:).
And i don't mean anything but the most mundane butcher chores,please don't read anything bloodthirsty into this,like those goofy TV shows,forever chopping something or other,to proove some utterly contrived point...:)

Much respect,as i state above,i Am a freak...:)
 
P.S.

But also there is,of course,the Psychological factor,to strike the Fear into the heart of the opponent...

That could well be a factor behind the wild,theatrical shapes of those Germanic pole-arms...

Like the whistling-apertures in Turkic arrow-heads...Or all that modern European police riot-gear,some mix of bad comics and samurai armour....enough to make all those sheltered urban youths run and vote for Putin from just looking at all that....:)
 
jake pogg said:
These Sparth axes put me in mind of something that would be about perfect to split a side of beef down the middle(i use a sawsall to do moose and caribou and can only wish i had something like that:).
And i don't mean anything but the most mundane butcher chores,please don't read anything bloodthirsty into this,like those goofy TV shows,forever chopping something or other,to proove some utterly contrived point...:)
Click to expand...

Try a beef splitter.

http://www.baryonyxknife.com/frditwbespcl.html
 
The closest historical example I have found is this Hussite Battle Axe:

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/reste/b29v4.jpg

Here is a modern replica:

http://www.armabohemia.cz/Novestr/polewin.htm

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/reste/b29v.jpg

Another modern “replica” (?):

https://www.wulflund.com/weapons/axes-poleweapons/combat-axe.html/

This one looks to me more like a modern fantasy thing geared for opening the wallets of mall ninjas (mall hussites?) rather, than a true replica though.

This one looks suspect too, I have seen all the elements on museum pieces, but I don’t know if the combination of them all is correct:

http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2008/10/medieval-battle-ax.jpg

Yet another modern replica (?):

http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2008/10/medieval-battle-ax.jpg

Has the spike and a socket.

These forms are not really woodworking or butcher tools, but I agree with Jake Pogg, that many axes used in battle may have been just everyday tools used for yet another purpose. At the very same era flails were frequently used as weapons too, by peasant armies.
 
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