Help me understand - diamond stone sharpening

[Top Gunner]

Guys, I’m at the end of my rope. I try and try to sharpen knives on diamond bench stones, and I just can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong. I read and read articles and forum posts, I watch endless videos, and I think I’m doing it right and the results tell me otherwise. Some knives get sharp, most get more dull. The tip of knives get muddled and convexed. Kitchen knives seem to be easiest. Hunting knives with a sweep or clip point pose a real problem.

Here’s what I’m doing:
I have 3 ultra sharp Diamond stones, rated 300, 600, and 1200.
I have plastic angle guides that I rubber band to the end of the stone so I can always begin at the proper angle. I use 15 or 20 degree depending on the blade.
I use Krud kutter as a lubricant.
I have a rubber base.
I use a sharpie.
I have sufficiently (as far as I understand) broken in all the stones by sharpening dull kitchen knives.
I clean/wash the stones regularly as I’m sharpening.

I’m doing 420hc stainless, 1095 carbon, 5160, D2, it doesn’t really matter, the results are pretty much the same. Buck, Esee, Grohmann, and old M2 Gerbers are pretty much all I have.

I also don’t know what the proper course is after I’ve formed a burr on one side. Some say go form one on the other side, and then alternate strokes on each side to keep the edge even. Others say form a burr on one side, then strop the burr off with a strop or a very fine stone, and you’re good. Wouldn’t that lead to an uneven edge? Wouldn’t I be taking off disproportionately more steel on one side? I know different people have different methods, but I cannot for the life of me find an answer to this question about the burr and uneven sharpening.

I don’t even know what else to say to give insight, because I don’t understand what I’m doing wrong. I use the angle guide, I use a sharpie, I use reasonable force (not too much, not too little), I’ve tried moving forward only, forward and back, circular… everything I read people basically say “yup, that happens in the beginning, just keep at it.” But if I’m obviously making a mistake and I “keep at it,” everything just gets worse. Unfortunately I’ve never really been a person who can just figure out how to do technical stuff on my own. Jimmy Hendrix taught himself to play guitar. I have to have a teacher or it doesn’t make sense to me. I learn best in person. But I’m the only person I know who likes knives or has any interest in learning how to sharpen them, so I don’t have any interpersonal resources of people who can help me along.

If anyone has any advice besides “keep at it,” “use a sharpie,” “use angle guides,” “search the forums,” I’d love to hear it.

More specifically, if anyone is in the Denver area and would be kind enough to help me out in person I’d be grateful.

Sorry if this sounds like a long whine. I’m really trying to learn, I’ve just hit a wall. I don’t understand what the problem is, and I need some help.
Thank you.

 

[willc]

The main problem you may be having is the steels your knives are in.
The only thing I use diamond plates for are very high vanadium steels that are run at high hardness.

For the steel that you listed I would use either Japanese water stones or Crystolon/ India type stones.
These are much less aggressive and the feel and feedback is much better on these stones.

 

[Top Gunner]

The main problem you may be having is the steels your knives are in.
The only thing I use diamond plates for are very high vanadium steels that are run at high hardness.

For the steel that you listed I would use either Japanese water stones or Crystolon/ India type stones.
These are much less aggressive and the feel and feedback is much better on these stones.

Thanks for the reply. I will try the technique on the Whetstones I have with the softer steels.

I have a couple bucks in D2, which is really hard steel, and I’m having the same problem though. And those Gerbers in M2 are the hardest steel I’ve ever come across. Same problem. Especially with the tip convexing.

 

[AntDog]

You’ve got to hold the angle consistently the same all the way heel to tip. Sounds like you’re bobbling things when you get to the end of the blade. Also, when you’ve made your stroke all the way to the tip, lift the blade off the stone. Don’t drag the tip off the edge of the stone - that’ll mess it up real quick on diamonds.

 

[Top Gunner]

You’ve got to hold the angle consistently the same all the way heel to tip. Sounds like you’re bobbling things when you get to the end of the blade. Also, when you’ve made your stroke all the way to the tip, lift the blade off the stone. Don’t drag the tip off the edge of the stone - that’ll mess it up real quick on diamonds.

I *think* I do both those things. I don’t know. I guess this is where I need some in person help, because I can’t show my form on here. I just don’t know how to find that.

I don’t really understand the best way to move the blade across the 8” stone from heel to tip. I start with the blade perpendicular to the stone, with it elevated on the angle guide. Then I move the blade steadily forward, and when I come to the sweep/clip, I turn the blade, trying to keep the angle the same for the tip. Sometimes I bring the tip back to the angle guide just to get a feel for where it should be when it’s making contact with the stone at the end of the stroke, and it seems to be right on the money. Meanwhile the edges are convexing and I’m blunting the tip somehow.

I’ve even at times tried sharpening the tip separately. So, I start with the tip coming off the angle guide, move it straight forward, lift it up before I hit the end of the stone, then the same thing happens. I’m knocking the shoulders of the edge off, and the tip is getting either more dull or no more sharp.

 

[Ourorboros]

Really hard to comment without seeing. What people think they are doing and what they actually do aren't always the same (for everything in life).
2 common problems are not holding a constant angle and pressure control. Especially with diamonds you only need light pressure.

Diamond stones are also very aggressive for the steels you have. Even a simple India (aluminum oxide) stone would be pretty fast on those steels.

 

[cudgee]

I *think* I do both those things. I don’t know. I guess this is where I need some in person help, because I can’t show my form on here. I just don’t know how to find that.

I don’t really understand the best way to move the blade across the 8” stone from heel to tip. I start with the blade perpendicular to the stone, with it elevated on the angle guide. Then I move the blade steadily forward, and when I come to the sweep/clip, I turn the blade, trying to keep the angle the same for the tip. Sometimes I bring the tip back to the angle guide just to get a feel for where it should be when it’s making contact with the stone at the end of the stroke, and it seems to be right on the money. Meanwhile the edges are convexing and I’m blunting the tip somehow.

I’ve even at times tried sharpening the tip separately. So, I start with the tip coming off the angle guide, move it straight forward, lift it up before I hit the end of the stone, then the same thing happens. I’m knocking the shoulders of the edge off, and the tip is getting either more dull or no more sharp.

I feel your frustration my friend, hopefully someone living in your area can catch up with you and give you some help and guidance. Sorry i can't offer you more.

 

[eveled]

I sharpen the straight part of the blade from heel to belly keeping the Ricasso pressed against the side of the stone for the whole stroke. Practice on a sheepsfoot or other straight blade. My goal is to remove equal metal the whole length of the blade.

Then I go back and sharpen from the tip to the belly separately usually starting at the tip and pressing forward into the stone.

 

[eveled]

Take it in steps.

Sharpen straight blades like wharncliff sheepsfoot coping etc. until you are happy with the results.

Then sharpen a wood chisel. Lay the bevel flat on the stone push forward on the stone. Until you are happy with the results.

Then morph the two techniques together and sharpen a tanto shape blade until you are happy with the results.

Then morph it a little more and sharpen your regular knives.


Be careful with the tip and the belly. There is not much contact area on the tip and the belly so you remove material faster there then you do on the other areas.

 

[Bill3152]

If you can't get it sharp on a diamond plate then a different stone won't make a difference. Diamond can sharpen any steel. that's all I use now. From carbon opinels to s110v to maxamet. And everything in between. Stick to the 300 stone you have. 300 can make a very nice cutting edge. If it isn't sharp after the 300 the others won't make a difference.

 

[bgentry]

Some thoughts:

1. 300 grit is enough to sharpen a somewhat dull knife in a reasonable amount of time. However, if the blades in question are extremely dull, the 300 will take quite a while. Could be an unreasonable amount of time on a really dull blade. This could explain your mixed results. You may never be reaching the edge on some blades.
2. The tip of the knife, on blades that are relatively thick, is usually NOT at the same angle as the rest of the blade. If you carefully stick to the same angle on a typical folding knife with a thick profile, your tip will end up with a much wider edge than the rest of the blade. This is because the TIP is in THICKER blade stock than the rest of the blade. Examine your blades and you should see what I mean.
This gives you a couple of choices. One of those choices it to increase the edge angle at the tip and make it look nice, but have a steeper angle near the tip.
3. It might be smart of you to make a short video (a couple of minutes) demonstrating your technique so people can help diagnose.
4. That being said, the two most common problems in sharpening are: Not reaching the edge. Not deburring correctly. Those are extremely hard to diagnose via video.
5. Have you read through my Seven Secret article? It's a sticky at the top of the forum. It may or may not give you some useful technqiues.

I should stop here for now.

Brian.

 

[PMQ]

I feel that you're extremely frustrated with sharpening, but sharpening is learning a new skill, like learning a new language, learn how to cook, learn how to swim,... you will suck at first, just be patience, practice, make mistakes, learn from your mistakes, keep practicing, you'll get there eventually.

Now, let's keep it simple and don't over complicate things:

Step 1: Form the burr on one side (300 grit)
(flip side)
Step 2: Form the burr on the other side (300 grit)
(flip side)
Step 3: Form the burr on the other side (600 grit)
(flip side)
Step 4: Form the burr on the other side (600 grit)
Step 5: Take off the burr using a strop. A strop is much more forgiving than a fine stone in burr removing, meaning that you don't have to be as precise.

For 300-600 grit stone, the burr will be big enough to feel with your finger tips, so you will know when you have form a burr. For a 1200 grit stone, the burr is smaller, you can feel it, but for beginners, it's really hard to feel them.

You can only form the burr on one side and go straight for the strop, but it's kinda a tricky shortcut, you need to know and understand the basics before using this "advance" technique.

Going higher in grit will not, I repeat, will not make your knife sharper. What it does is making your edge more "smooth", the right term to use here is "fine" but I find using the word "fine" is confusing for beginner, so for now just use the word "smooth"

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

With diamond on simpler steels, I'd STRONGLY SUGGEST starting only with the 1200 grit hone, while you're figuring it all out. Even at 1200, the hone will still be aggressive enough to show you what you need to see, in terms of metal removal, angle control, etc.

The vast majority of issues encountered, when learning sharpening, are all about steady angle control. Edges that never get sharp after a lot of grinding on aggressive stones will be the result of not maintaining steady control of the angle. While figuring that out, take a close look at what changes on your edge after every single pass - one pass at a time. No need to do a lot of grinding at the edge until you know you're executing each pass steadily. Use your Sharpie to see where the metal is coming off, after each pass.

When your technique improves on the 1200, then start taking it down in grit to the coarser hones, and repeat the same process as above. Slow & steady baby steps are what it's about, when learning sharpening.

 

[PMQ]

Obsessed with Edges firstly I just want to say that I have learned a great deal of knowledge on sharpening from reading from you on bladeforum, but when you suggest honing, do you think that continuously switching side will amplify the inconsistency of the angle?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Guys, I’m at the end of my rope. I try and try to sharpen knives on diamond bench stones, and I just can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong. I read and read articles and forum posts, I watch endless videos, and I think I’m doing it right and the results tell me otherwise. Some knives get sharp, most get more dull. The tip of knives get muddled and convexed. Kitchen knives seem to be easiest. Hunting knives with a sweep or clip point pose a real problem.

Here’s what I’m doing:
I have 3 ultra sharp Diamond stones, rated 300, 600, and 1200.
I have plastic angle guides that I rubber band to the end of the stone so I can always begin at the proper angle. I use 15 or 20 degree depending on the blade.
I use Krud kutter as a lubricant.
I have a rubber base.
I use a sharpie.
I have sufficiently (as far as I understand) broken in all the stones by sharpening dull kitchen knives.
I clean/wash the stones regularly as I’m sharpening.

I’m doing 420hc stainless, 1095 carbon, 5160, D2, it doesn’t really matter, the results are pretty much the same. Buck, Esee, Grohmann, and old M2 Gerbers are pretty much all I have.

I also don’t know what the proper course is after I’ve formed a burr on one side. Some say go form one on the other side, and then alternate strokes on each side to keep the edge even. Others say form a burr on one side, then strop the burr off with a strop or a very fine stone, and you’re good. Wouldn’t that lead to an uneven edge? Wouldn’t I be taking off disproportionately more steel on one side? I know different people have different methods, but I cannot for the life of me find an answer to this question about the burr and uneven sharpening.

I don’t even know what else to say to give insight, because I don’t understand what I’m doing wrong. I use the angle guide, I use a sharpie, I use reasonable force (not too much, not too little), I’ve tried moving forward only, forward and back, circular… everything I read people basically say “yup, that happens in the beginning, just keep at it.” But if I’m obviously making a mistake and I “keep at it,” everything just gets worse. Unfortunately I’ve never really been a person who can just figure out how to do technical stuff on my own. Jimmy Hendrix taught himself to play guitar. I have to have a teacher or it doesn’t make sense to me. I learn best in person. But I’m the only person I know who likes knives or has any interest in learning how to sharpen them, so I don’t have any interpersonal resources of people who can help me along.

If anyone has any advice besides “keep at it,” “use a sharpie,” “use angle guides,” “search the forums,” I’d love to hear it.

More specifically, if anyone is in the Denver area and would be kind enough to help me out in person I’d be grateful.

Sorry if this sounds like a long whine. I’m really trying to learn, I’ve just hit a wall. I don’t understand what the problem is, and I need some help.
Thank you.

- Start with the 300. Part of your issue might be the 300 is still not very coarse, esp after being broken in. Just be patient - stop and inspect the blade after every couple of passes. Re-apply Sharpie if you can't suss out what's happening.

- Raise a burr stem to stern - if you can see or feel one in one stretch of the blade, try to stop working that area.

- once a burr is formed full length, flip the blade, double the angle on your blade, very lightly brush the edge against the plate with an edge leading pass. check every two passes or so. You want to remove the burr and as little of the actual edge as possible. You also do NOT want to fold that burr over to the other side. It is still attached and every flip will only weaken the attachment, causing it to flip with less and less pressure - get it while its fresh.

as with forming the burr, you do not want to keep going on any areas that have been deburred.

- lower it to the grinding angle and grind a new edge, again, form a burr full length on this side and remove in the same manner - double the angle and lightly "brush" it off the edge.

- do a few light passes at original grinding angle on both sides, alternating every two or so - inspect the blade to make sure you're holding OK angle control.

- wrap a plain sheet of paper around one of the plates and strop - inspect for burrs and remove - this is more of a QC step but on low carbide steels it will also improve the edge

- repeat on finer plate or take directly to the 1200, elevate the angle slightly and use 3-5 very soft leading passes, alternating every pass or two - this will lay in a nice microbevel.

 

[MrStabby7]

For me diamond stones sharpen alot faster than somthing like a king whetstone. Unless your knife is extremely dull I would just start with the 1200 stone. I only push the knife away from me! Thats important. Once I get a burr on one side flip the knife over and and sharpen the knife on the other side. This will move the burr to the other side. The reason you want to do this is to expose fresh metal on both sides of you knife and keep a consistent angle on your blade. Basically you want your knife edge to be an equallateral triangle and not somthing like a scalene triangle. Once im happy with the second burr I've formed all thats left to do is remove it. Pay attention!! This is where a blade becomes razor sharp or dies! One maybe two very light passes on the stone should do it.
Go slow!! If you over do this part you will roll your very fine edge you created and basically have to start over. For me I usually do this on a 6000grit whetstone and then use a strop with some green compound on it.

Hope that helps!

Pro tip: If you haven't already... learn to feel for the burr especially a fine burr. A very sharp knife will have no burr. If you can feel one remove it. Until your left with two lines meeting at infinity.

 

[eKretz]

My very first question for most people that are having a hard time with sharpening is: how much pressure are you applying to the blade while attempting to finish the edge? I have found that most new sharpeners are using WAY too much pressure when finishing. This is fine when roughing in a blade and trying to remove a lot of steel that's in the way.

When you are finishing, you should be MUCH gentler. Approaching the semifinishing stage your down pressure should be something like what you use with an eraser on the end of a pencil. When you are doing the final finishing of the edge it should be lighter still, just enough pressure to keep the blade in positive contact. I'd be willing to bet that you are using too much pressure, which will only cause trouble for you and make it nearly impossible to get a fine edge.

The other issue that many seem to have is not getting the new bevel cut all the way down to the apex, as already mentioned by several guys here. The burr method is good, and you can also get a good visual indication by marking the bevel with Sharpie or something similar. Getting this done correctly is the basis/foundation of a good edge and is absolutely necessary to get correct for all further sharpening. It cannot be emphasized enough.

As far as how much to remove from each side - if the bevel is centered, you should take equal amounts from either side. If not, get it centered up. Use your eyes and get the bevels the same size when roughing in the blade. That is plenty good enough.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Obsessed with Edges firstly I just want to say that I have learned a great deal of knowledge on sharpening from reading from you on bladeforum, but when you suggest honing, do you think that continuously switching side will amplify the inconsistency of the angle?

As long as you're paying attention to what's occurring on each & every pass, switching sides shouldn't necessarily be a problem.

BUT, you might find it easier to work each side a bit longer at a time, to get a feel for maintaining the angle consistently from one pass to the next. Maybe 10-20 passes on one side, paying close attention to what's occurring at the edge on each pass. Then switch to the other side and repeat the same methodology. When you get closer to apexing the edge, then switch to alternating passes to each side, until you can detect a burr along the full length of the cutting edge.

I'd still suggest practicing this with your finest hone first, for awhile. While trying to figure it all out, practicing with a coarser hone just amplifies the bad results of marginal technique, wasting more blade steel and taking much more work to fix. So instead, after you're getting good results with the finest hone, then try the same process with successively coarser hones. This won't be the 'normal' progression, obviously, while you're training your hands to maintain the angle. Once you get that down, then try a normal progression from your coarse through your fine hones.

 

[3D Anvil]

I'm in the learning process myself, and as others have said, it just takes practice to develop the necessary feel and muscle memory. One thing that's helped me is to pick up an old beater knife to practice on. I used a rough stone (Shapton Glass 500 or Shapton Pro 120) to set a deep bevel. In my case I have a natural tendency to apply a shallower angle with my left hand than I do with my dominant right hand, and hat really shows up when you grind the ever-livin' hell out of the blade.

 

[Bill3152]

I'm in the learning process myself, and as others have said, it just takes practice to develop the necessary feel and muscle memory. One thing that's helped me is to pick up an old beater knife to practice on. I used a rough stone (Shapton Glass 500 or Shapton Pro 120) to set a deep bevel. In my case I have a natural tendency to apply a shallower angle with my left hand than I do with my dominant right hand, and hat really shows up when you grind the ever-livin' hell out of the blade.

A coarse.stone does.more.damage but it also shows you things faster. Why do 100 strokes on a fine stone when you can do 20 and see how the edge changes is my thinking. And don't practice on an expensive knife. A few opinels will teach you alot even if they end up toothpicks. Just my .02.