Help with damascus from ball bearings please.

scottickes

scottickes

Joined
Oct 27, 2005
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I have 9 small ball bearings made out of 52100. The bearings are about 2" in diameter, with little 1/4" balls in them. 11 balls in each one. I took them apart to do a damage analysis. What I want to do is make canned damascus with 1084 powder to fill all of the voids around the bearings in the can. I'm thinking of getting some thin, long mild steel channel to lay them in side by side. I'd weld a cap on each end to contain the powder as I tap and pack it full of powder around the bearings, filling the can up. I'd then put a top over the entire thing and weld it shut. I have a few questions, since I haven't tried anything like this yet.

Will I get good contrast with the 52100/1084 combination?
Should I add some other powder metal instead?
Should I cut up some 15N20 into little pieces and put it in randomly with the 1084 powder and bearings?
Do I need to have a hole drilled in one end of the welded up can?

Once I have it welded up, I'm going to grind off the mild steel can and then etch it to see the pattern. If I like it, I'll keep some of it like that. I'm also going to twist some of it, or all of it, to see what happens to the pattern when I do that.

Any suggestions, beyond what I've already asked?
 
scottickes said:
Will I get good contrast with the 52100/1084 combination?
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You should get decent contrast. Don't expect pure nickle & O-1 contrast, but you'll get patterning...

scottickes said:
Should I add some other powder metal instead?
Click to expand...

1084 is as good as any I can think of.

scottickes said:
Should I cut up some 15N20 into little pieces and put it in randomly with the 1084 powder and bearings?
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Entirely up to you. Depends on the look you're going for.

scottickes said:
Do I need to have a hole drilled in one end of the welded up can?
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In Ed Caffrey's video he doesn't do this. In my conversations with Ray Rybar, he doesn't do this. I think you'll be fine without. Seems like a way to let O2 *IN* if you ask me...

scottickes said:
Once I have it welded up, I'm going to grind off the mild steel can and then etch it to see the pattern. If I like it, I'll keep some of it like that. I'm also going to twist some of it, or all of it, to see what happens to the pattern when I do that.

Any suggestions, beyond what I've already asked?
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If you line the can with stainless foil (preferably already used for HT) you can minimize your grinding. The used foil won't stick to anything.

Make sure you post pictures!

-d
 
deker said:
If you line the can with stainless foil (preferably already used for HT) you can minimize your grinding. The used foil won't stick to anything.

Make sure you post pictures!

-d
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Thanks deker.

Do you mean to line the inside of the can? Outside doesn't seem like it would do what I want. I want to grind all of the mild steel off, so that it isn't in my final billet.

Here are pictures of the bearings that I'm going to use. The large races are exactly 2" diameter.
 
deker said:
That would also work. Toss it in the forge briefly before you fill it to oxidize the surface and it shouldn't stick to your billet at all.

-d
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Great idea. I think I'll go over to Eastside Metal here in town and find just the right stuff. Now I need to get some 1084 powder. Best place to get it?
 
I stopped at one of forging mentors shops today. I'm going to be making ball bearing damascus in his shop. His name is Nick Marcelja. He makes mostly damascus swords and midieval type cutlery. Here are some pictures of Nick working on welding up a damascus sword. The inside, as you can see is four bars welded together. The pattern on the inside bars is an interrupted twist. The twist starts and stops on each individual bar and he staggers them. He also twisted two of the bars left hand and two right hand to add some interest to the pattern. He then made the long outside bar of damascus in a different type of twist and here you can see him wrapping it around the inside bars. The last picture, I got the timing perfect on the welding blow as he was welding the wrapped piece to the inside bars, and you can see the flux flying!

Notice the hot steel block on his anvil. He heats a steel block up to welding temperature and then takes it out right before he takes out the sword material and he sets his welds on this hot block instead of his cold anvil. He told me that it has really helped him get good welds in less heats. A great idea!

There is a piece of Nick's damascus in the "For Sale" threads. He's a very friendly guy and has helped me a lot with my forging and welding.
 
Scottie,

Here are a couple I did with ball bearings and powder. I used a 3x3x6inch mild steel tubing with 1/8th inch wall. It is best to mill or grind off the box. In the sealed environment stainless will weld to it and anything inside will either convert to steel or be obsorbed in the form of carbon. I would rather grind off mild steel than stainless. (I have had SS weld to mild steel in a box)

Chuck
 
scottickes said:
Great idea. I think I'll go over to Eastside Metal here in town and find just the right stuff. Now I need to get some 1084 powder. Best place to get it?
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Call Kelly Cupples for 1084 powder. His contact info and prices are up on Darren Ellis' site.

A C Richards said:
In the sealed environment stainless will weld to it and anything inside will either convert to steel or be obsorbed in the form of carbon. I would rather grind off mild steel than stainless. (I have had SS weld to mild steel in a box)
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Chuck, have you tried oxidizing the stainless tube first? As I understand it (and somebody correct me if I'm mistaken please) that once stainless has an oxide coating it won't weld to anything. I'll be trying some can welding soon-ish and I plan to give several methods a shot. I'll make sure to report back what I find out.

-d
 
Scott, Your plan sounds good except for the 1084. 52100 etches rather dark like the 1084 so there won't be much contrast. I would use some 4600e which etches pretty bright like 15n20 but dosen't have any carbon to speak of. Kelly cupples has some fairly new stuff that has carbon in it or you cane add some finely ground charcoal or graphite to the powder before you fill the can.
 
I second what Bill Burke said. You can add graphite to 4600e to get carbon, though Bill just told us Cupples is getting some stuff with carbon in it.
 
Larrin said:
I second what Bill Burke said. You can add graphite to 4600e to get carbon, though Bill just told us Cupples is getting some stuff with carbon in it.
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I have Kelly speed dialed into my cell phone. I already get my 1084, 1080, 15N20 and Anhydrous Borax from him. Plus, Kelly is a first rate guy. I enjoy doing business with him. I'll give him a call later this week.
 
Deker, I have not tried oxidizing the ss. I used heat treat foil and it did weld to it. How about 15N20 powder?? I used iron powder and added 1% carbon and 2% pure nickel powder. Great contrast.

Chuck
 
A C Richards said:
Deker, I have not tried oxidizing the ss. I used heat treat foil and it did weld to it. How about 15N20 powder?? I used iron powder and added 1% carbon and 2% pure nickel powder. Great contrast.
Click to expand...

The oxidation thought came from a conversation I had with Ray Rybar last week. He suggested wrapping the stuff inside the can in SS foil, but he specifically said "used" foil since it wouldn't stick to anything because of oxidation. Seemed like it should apply to SS square tube as well.

-d
 
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