Help with sharpening

R

Ruger 44 Redhawk

Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
192
Hi all, just wondering how to get a blade shaving sharp. I've tried most options other than a belt machine (don't have a shop). I have the Lansky fixed sharpeners that absolutely suck in my opinion. All I've done is ruin knives by taking off too much metal. And I was being careful. Furthermore, you can't really use the 17 degree option because you hit the screw head on side. So I've tried just getting some basic inexpensive two sided stones and free handing with the Worksharp pocket sharpener that has ceramics, diamond and strop on it. I have tried with a marker to make sure I'm hitting the right spots. The only blade I can get fairly sharp with easy is the Buck 110 (and that is 440C on a 3 dot 1980). Should try sharpening the opposite direction? So rather than pushing the blade on the stone, reverse and pull it! Seems like that is actually the logical way anyway. I know creating a burr by push sharpening is the goal, but even when I do that and remove the burr, it's still only moderately sharp. And I know blade geometry plays a part. That is, full flat grinds should be easier to get sharp like the Ontario RD's and Tak 1 or hollow grinds like Buck's. But the thinker saber grinds are not easy like the Bencmade 551 and Leatheman K502X for example.
 
It's very difficult to do it freehand, most of the time you see someone with a shaving sharp edge they've used a sharpening system that holds the grind angle consistent, like an Edgepro. You do want to be pushing into the edge and building up a burr, and being mindful of removing that burr when you switch sides. Also, to really get shaving sharp you'd need a sequence of stones with varying grit so you end up finishing with one that's so fine that you get a polished edge.
 
I'm sure different people have different ideas of what "shaving sharp" means.

There's "I can easily shave hair off of my arm", and then there's "I could dry shave my face with this knife".

I have only ever sharpened freehand, and I've never accepted anything less from myself than a finished edge that can easily shave hair off my arm, that is how I was taught. And I've never produced a "polished" edge. This is not intended as a boast, it is simply the result of practice, experience, and familiarity with the act of sharpening. I've certainly never produced an edge I would want to try and shave my face with (my facial hair is much thicker than my arm hair).

Like most things in life, proficiency and desired results take practice. Advice and tutorials only go so far, it's the person holding the knife that ultimately has to figure it out and determine what works.

Also, producing a burr, and then removing it are certainly not all there is to sharpening a knife. You can produce a burr on a 90 degree angle, but even after that burr is removed you won't have a cutting edge.

In my opinion, and in my experience, ones ability to produce a sharp edge, "shaving sharp" or not, is a combination of several factors- steel type, heat treat, edge geometry, hone grit, hone quality, and last but not least, but perhaps most important- the ability of the person holding the knife.

And on that last one, I've seen people produce "shaving sharp" edges using a flat rock. So my advice to beginners is, don't fixate on equipment and "gadgetry" so much, but instead, focus on your technique. A skilled person, with good technique, can produce amazing results even with a flat rock.

All I use to sharpen my knives these days, and for quite awhile now, are a fine and a coarse DMT diamond hone, that's it. And using just those two hones I will occasionally get asked why I have bald patches on my arms 😁 .

Keep practicing. Don't give up and you'll get there. It might cost you some steel, maybe even a few blades, but sometimes that's the price of proficiency. :)
 
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All good advice above.

The MOST IMPORTANT tip I learned about sharpening (WAY too late btw) is to visually confirm that you have a fully apexed edge using light reflections. Bright light - sun works best.

I find that 99% of the time if I’m having trouble getting a knife sharp it’s because I incorrectly assumed I had apexed the edge.

Easiest way for me to explain this is:
1) stand facing the sun
2) point your knife away from you, with the edge facing the sky.
3) carefully examine the edge, looking directly down at the edge, and looking for any small light reflections.

Any reflections indicate areas where the bevels don’t meet/don’t form an apex, and this area needs further sharpening.

Good luck!
 
Consider that straight razors actually made for shaving have the edge geometry ground to about 15° inclusive (7.5° per side). That's the most significant contributor to shaving sharpness, to begin with as a foundation. After that, it comes down to refinement of the apex, making it as narrow as you can and aligned as straight as possible. That means something like 0.3 micron down to 0.1 micron or less across the width of the apex of the edge.

So, shaving sharpness can be made easier by taking the edge geometry as thin as you can, for starters. Just be aware, edges made that thin will become much more fragile in any use other than shaving.

BTW, those old Buck 110/112 folders in 440C were notoriously thick behind the edge. So, if you're not yet getting shaving sharpness out of such a knife, don't fret too much. And shaving sharpness is also made easier using steels that are very fine-grained and usually without many large carbides. These are attributes of steels like 1095 and AEB-L (from which many razor blades have been made). 440C isn't such a steel, usually being coarser-grained and containing some pretty large chromium carbides, which makes thinning the apex to such extremes much more challenging.
 
shane45-1911 said:
This absolutely not true at all.
Click to expand...

Either you didn't understand what I wrote, or your definition of "shaving sharp" isn't the same as mine.

garry3 said:
Not sure what the thing is with a polished edge? It means nothing to me with knifes or straight razors, pretty sure it sells stones though.
Click to expand...

The polished edge is an indication of how much care has gone into producing a smooth and keen edge. To get that polish, you need to fully sharpen out the microscopic cuts made from the previous, coarser grits. Looking at the edge under magnification, a polished edge is more likely to be straight and consistent along the length of the blade, instead of being full of microserrations. This may not make a huge difference for a lot of cutting tasks, but if you're actually shaving hair with a straight push cut, you'll want an edge like that. Any straight razor needs to be finished to at least this level to be shave ready (and production straight razors overwhelmingly do not come from the factory with an edge that would quality as shave ready to most SR collectors).
 
If you’re cutting tough materials like rope , canvas or belting that include dirt and debris a toothy edge with micro serration will be much better than a polished edge. I didn’t see anything about a straight razor in the op post and I’m sure he isn’t going to actually use his knife for shaving. Probably just wants a good sharp edge that cuts easily and a micro toothy edge will do that and I’ve found they keep a good working edge for a lot longer.

I use a worksharp hand sharpener for most of my knives but occasionally use a bigger bench stone for reprofiling . My work knives i use the coarse diamond and for my smaller pocket knives i finish with the medium grit. I will strop in between touch ups with the ceramic rod or leather if needed.

I’ve been sharpening my knives for 50+ years , at first I wasn’t to good and it took lots of practice to have the skill to get a good sharp edge. My dad and brother had a boot and saddle shop and lots of knives and other cutting tools so I had plenty to work on.
 
scdub said:
All good advice above.

The MOST IMPORTANT tip I learned about sharpening (WAY too late btw) is to visually confirm that you have a fully apexed edge using light reflections. Bright light - sun works best.

I find that 99% of the time if I’m having trouble getting a knife sharp it’s because I incorrectly assumed I had apexed the edge.

Easiest way for me to explain this is:
1) stand facing the sun
2) point your knife away from you, with the edge facing the sky.
3) carefully examine the edge, looking directly down at the edge, and looking for any small light reflections.

Any reflections indicate areas where the bevels don’t meet/don’t form an apex, and this area needs further sharpening.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
This👆, you can also get one of the cheap magnifiers to help see what you're doing. Hitting it with a strop when you're done can make a difference too. That was a big thing for me. I struggled to get an edge I was happy with. Turned out I was just never getting the burr off cleanly. Freehand sharpening isn't the easiest. Your lansky is what I started on. It's not the best, but it should give you ok results.
 
Tsujigiri said:
It's very difficult to do it freehand, most of the time you see someone with a shaving sharp edge they've used a sharpening system that holds the grind angle consistent, like an Edgepro.
Click to expand...
The vast majority of people I know who sharpen their own knives do it freehand and can easily get a shaving sharp edge. It is not difficult.

I may be difficult for those who haven't developed the skill yet, but gaining that skill is easier than what some people make it out to be IMO. Understanding the fundamentals is the key.
 
Hi all, just wondering how to get a blade shaving sharp. I've tried most options other than a belt machine (don't have a shop). I have the Lansky fixed sharpeners that absolutely suck in my opinion. All I've done is ruin knives by taking off too much metal. And I was being careful. Furthermore, you can't really use the 17 degree option because you hit the screw head on side. So I've tried just getting some basic inexpensive two sided stones and free handing with the Worksharp pocket sharpener that has ceramics, diamond and strop on it. I have tried with a marker to make sure I'm hitting the right spots. The only blade I can get fairly sharp with easy is the Buck 110 (and that is 440C on a 3 dot 1980). Should try sharpening the opposite direction? So rather than pushing the blade on the stone, reverse and pull it! Seems like that is actually the logical way anyway. I know creating a burr by push sharpening is the goal, but even when I do that and remove the burr, it's still only moderately sharp. And I know blade geometry plays a part. That is, full flat grinds should be easier to get sharp like the Ontario RD's and Tak 1 or hollow grinds like Buck's. But the thinker saber grinds are not easy like the Bencmade 551 and Leatheman K502X for example.
A) Shaving sharp ? Wow ... Ok ... How to deal with this question ? Bevel angle ! Want to actually shave with a knife ? .. Your going to have to tighten the bevel to the point it's going to be too fragile to be a knife edge ! That's how you shave with a knife , you turn it into a cut throat razor ........
B) If you just want it to be hair off you arm popping sharp ? Then you need to learn to sharpen correctly .. Get on youtube ! Should be 100's of videos .
C) Hand sharpening ....... !!! Go back to the Lansky ... When you can make a knife hair popping sharp on the Lansky , then your ready to hand sharpen .. I say this Cos the Lansky should be bush league .. Yes I own Lansky ! I don't like it , but it works .
The most important part of sharpening ( any form / style ) is learning to eliminate your mistakes . So you need to identify what you are doing wrong and not do it any more .
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Lansky+Sharpening+tutorial >>>> Hit Utube !
 
scdub said:
All good advice above.

The MOST IMPORTANT tip I learned about sharpening (WAY too late btw) is to visually confirm that you have a fully apexed edge using light reflections. Bright light - sun works best.

I find that 99% of the time if I’m having trouble getting a knife sharp it’s because I incorrectly assumed I had apexed the edge.

Easiest way for me to explain this is:
1) stand facing the sun
2) point your knife away from you, with the edge facing the sky.
3) carefully examine the edge, looking directly down at the edge, and looking for any small light reflections.

Any reflections indicate areas where the bevels don’t meet/don’t form an apex, and this area needs further sharpening.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
Another vote for this advice. I consider myself pretty efficient at sharpening but I had an issue with one recently and I hadn’t hit the apex. I even did the sharpie test and thought I was there. put some light on the matter and discovered I still hadn’t reached apex! Now the knife is really sharp.
 
Tsujigiri said:
It's very difficult to do it freehand, most of the time you see someone with a shaving sharp edge they've used a sharpening system that holds the grind angle consistent, like an Edgepro. You do want to be pushing into the edge and building up a burr, and being mindful of removing that burr when you switch sides. Also, to really get shaving sharp you'd need a sequence of stones with varying grit so you end up finishing with one that's so fine that you get a polished edge.
Click to expand...
I don’t know about being difficult but it is certainly a steep learning curve. I am not sure that I can do a better job sharpening on my bench-stones than using my Sharpmaker but I get more satisfaction when I get a good edge on my bench-stones.
 
I can't freehand sharpen a knife to save my life. I suck at it. Guided sharpener for me. But they do get sharp enough to shave that's for sure.
 
I've been freehand sharpening knives and other stuff for a few years now, and I consider myself pretty good at sharpening. Freehand sharpening is a skill and a art (also very enjoyable) it takes some time to learn but it's worth it! I would recommend to learn on a wet stone, get yourself a 600-1000 grit wet stone, leather strop and a cheap knife to learn on. There are a bunch of videos on youtube about sharpening but I would recommend Kyle Noseworthy's videos.
 
Ruger 44 Redhawk said:
Hi all, just wondering how to get a blade shaving sharp. I've tried most options other than a belt machine (don't have a shop). I have the Lansky fixed sharpeners that absolutely suck in my opinion. All I've done is ruin knives by taking off too much metal. And I was being careful. Furthermore, you can't really use the 17 degree option because you hit the screw head on side. So I've tried just getting some basic inexpensive two sided stones and free handing with the Worksharp pocket sharpener that has ceramics, diamond and strop on it. I have tried with a marker to make sure I'm hitting the right spots. The only blade I can get fairly sharp with easy is the Buck 110 (and that is 440C on a 3 dot 1980). Should try sharpening the opposite direction? So rather than pushing the blade on the stone, reverse and pull it! Seems like that is actually the logical way anyway. I know creating a burr by push sharpening is the goal, but even when I do that and remove the burr, it's still only moderately sharp. And I know blade geometry plays a part. That is, full flat grinds should be easier to get sharp like the Ontario RD's and Tak 1 or hollow grinds like Buck's. But the thinker saber grinds are not easy like the Bencmade 551 and Leatheman K502X for example.
Click to expand...
I use Lansky systems, they are very good. Its probably you.
 
Tsujigiri said:
Either you didn't understand what I wrote, or your definition of "shaving sharp" isn't the same as mine.



The polished edge is an indication of how much care has gone into producing a smooth and keen edge. To get that polish, you need to fully sharpen out the microscopic cuts made from the previous, coarser grits. Looking at the edge under magnification, a polished edge is more likely to be straight and consistent along the length of the blade, instead of being full of microserrations. This may not make a huge difference for a lot of cutting tasks, but if you're actually shaving hair with a straight push cut, you'll want an edge like that. Any straight razor needs to be finished to at least this level to be shave ready (and production straight razors overwhelmingly do not come from the factory with an edge that would quality as shave ready to most SR collectors).
Click to expand...
not true. a all of my razors I shave with are free handed mainly because they have a spine that makes them keep a certain degree consistent so technically while free handed they don't allow for a ton of wobble if you know what your doing. while it's easy to frown or smile the razor that's a different story. b. shaving sharp is super easy off stones freehand with regular knives. c. go read Todd's website about how you can have a decent shave off a low grit stone. the serrations in the bevel have nothing to do with a comfortable shave it's the last nanometers of an edge apex that makes contact and I have literally had clean shaves using a 320 grit as well as 500 grit shaptons followed by the strop. www.scienceofsharp.com
 
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