Help with sword build.

Z

zuhayr94

Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
5
Hi everyone.
This is my first post and I would like some help.
I want to build a sword as soon as budget permits me. Already I have some tools (a good drill, 4 1/2" grinder, files, saws, gas torch, improvised forge,) and I'm currently in the process of getting some I beam as a temp anvil and obviously some steel for the sword (01 grade tool steel)
Can somebody point me in the direction of a simple tutorial on how the basics in making a sword, or can somebody kindly write it up in a reply ? I want to use the stock removal method as its the easiest and it's my first one, and the partial tang method as I want the grip to cover it all.
I have been doing alot of reading now for the last two weeks but i would still like some simple help as piece of mind.

Apart from the tutorial I want to ask.
Can I just get a flat bar stock delivered to me already hardened and tempered and I just cut and grind it to shape ? I assume not but just want conformation.

My biggest confusion is when to harden and when to temper, along the timeline of the build, and when do I actually shape and sharpen the sword edge as I've read conflicting ideas, and also oil vs water quenching ?? ...

I've requested a quote for steel 5mm thick, 3" wide and 25" long (im quite short), I want to make a Persian type scimitar sword but without to much of a curve hence the width, just got some extra width to play with.

I would like to start asap, as soon as I get the steel, so any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Many many thanks in advance. :)
 
Im just going to start out here, O1 is not a great sword steel, its very hard. And seeing as O1 means Oil quench one it would be an oil quench steel. Very few steels are water quench these days. If you were to make a sword, use 5160 or aldos 80crv2. You dont want to get it hardened because you wont be able to file it. Its very hard to get consistent bevels on something as simple as a chef knife without a lot of practice, your biggest confusion should be in how you are going to grind 25 inch long bevels cleanly, YOu harden and temper at the end when you have only a thin edge remaining so you can remove decarb and still work it.

More to the point, make knives first. They are 100 times eaiser but still quite difficult to do. Trust me, dont jump into a sword.
 
I once heard you should make as many knife blades as the lbs you weigh, Then you can try a sword. But to answer your questions, go to the stickies at the top of the page. Do more research and watch more videos, you'll quickly see that you are trying to bite off more than you can chew. We are not saying this to be rude, only based on our own experiences. I would not attempt a sword and I've been it it over a year.
 
The first blade i made, many years ago, was a sword, using about the same equipment you have. The second blade I made was less than 2" long, and I've been working my way back to swords ever since (not quite there yet, but close).

More to the point, make knives first. They are 100 times eaiser but still quite difficult to do. Trust me, dont jump into a sword.
Click to expand...
This is very good advise.

The main problem i ran into was how the heck to harden a 25" long blade... you have to get the entire thing up to temperature at the same time, and this is nearly impossible with a make-shift forge and torch. Another problem was I'd never ground a blade before, and my grinds were hideously uneven and wobbly. The fact is, you need to be very good at making knives before you can make a decent sword. So i suggest you make some knives first. Stick around this forum, buy some steel, read everything you can find on the subject, and start grinding.

In case you ignore our advise... O1 would not be my first choice of steels for a sword, I would personally go with 1084 as it is inexpensive, easy to grind, and easy to heat-treat. 80crv2, 5160, and 1075 would also be good choices, but 1084 is nearly foolproof.... all of these steels can be purchased from the New Jersey Steel Baron. It might be possible to buy steel already hardened, but this will likely already be made into some type of tool that you would then grind into a sword... I think a machete, or a sword made in India might be ideal for this, just reshape the blade to suit your needs.
 
Steps to follow:

1. Don't make a sword
2. Don't pretend you're good enough to make a sword right now. You're not.
3. Check for butt hurt. If you are, get over it. We are telling you this for your own sanity.
4. READ THE STICKIES!!
5. Read the stickies again.
6. Ask questions about what you don't understand.
7. Follow the stickies and build a small knife.
8. Post for critique.
9. Make another.

You have no idea what you're even asking. You have so little knowledge right now that you don't know how far into the deep end you want to jump. You haven't even seen water before and you want to swim the English Channel.
 
Point taken people ! :), I dont have a problem taking on critisism if it's valid. I'll take the advise and make a knife. And make a sword when I've made a near perfect knife, whenever that would be.
 
Just a question I have after reading some comments ... If 01 steel is too brittle, could I not just temper it for longer ? Or more times ? To soften the fuller and back of the blade ? ....
 
The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V36

Answers to a student are different than to machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community;fill out your profile with (Country, State, City), age, education, work and hobbies so we get a sense of who you are.

Basics
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-PDF
http://jubilee101.com/subscription/pdf/Tools/Making-Simple-Knives---12pages.pdf

Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673

Things I Advise New Makers Against-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/nw1/scales1.htm
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Wheeler-s-Steel-*-Stuck-in-the-metal-with-you
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/956343-Damascus-integral-tag-along

Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435307&postcount=43

BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, organized, available inexpensive.


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elementarymachin00palmrich/elementarymachin00palmrich.pdf

The Complete Practical Machinist-1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/items/completepractic00rosegoog/completepractic00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save

The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
Great title, but NOT gospel.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind (stock removal)

"Goop Quench" is Bullsh*t
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for 1084

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel
Good heat treat needs accurate temperature control and full quench
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola

Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web


Video

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeStuff/SafetyVideo.wmv

Many videos are available, some better than others

The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
Paul Long's sheath work & videos are recommended, but advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching

Green Pete's Free Video
Make a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat
Use a piece of known 1084 steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools
"Green Pete" posted it free
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too – search knifemaking torrents

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some good, some bad, expect to wait months and there have been no new videos in years.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking


Knife Design:
Think thin, small, simple and fixed
Forget swords, 1/4” thick stock, saw-teeth, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife

Look at hundreds of photos
Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Bob Engnath Patterns PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx

http://knifemaking.altervista.org/index_disegni_en.html

Start with a drawing and post it before you work on steel, we love photos and can comment before you start
French curves, graph paper and erasers are vital tools
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tWA/TEj5Quiq1ZI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rn2EoHoXpVc/s1600/The+French+Curve.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1147466-How?p=13120810#post13120810

Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such
Use playdough to shape a handle, good handles are not flat

How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums



Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives
Buy new known 1/8” annealed blade steel
Forget lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use known good steel
You will spend more money on sandpaper or soda pop than you will for steel

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, Elmax plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160
His telephone service is better than his website.

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating $10 or $15 for perfect results

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs
http://www.buckknives.com/about-knives/heat-treating/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

1095 is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment to HT themselves
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget Goop Quench and Motor oil

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type
Explanation and classification oil speeds
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?28197-Hardening-II-Quenching

Grocery store canola oil works well -if you use the right steel like 1084

Brine and water are cheap for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095, but use fast oils Parks 50 & Houghton Houghto Quench K
If you use water or brine, expect broken blades

Hot steel beats plastic, Don't quench in plastic pail

Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min high strength epoxy to attach handles and seal out moisture
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work
prep, measure, mix are key in gluing.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best
Ensure the surface is clean including fingerprints, wear vinyl or nitrile gloves
Use Acetone or Blasting
Don't over-clamp.A “glue starved joint” is weak

West Systems G Flex http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/
Find it locally http://www.westsystem.com/ss/where-to-buy/
Brownell's Acraglas
JB Weld-leaves a grey line


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it by hand with files and abrasive like the Green Pete video.
Use 1084 instead of a file, spheroid annealed steel is butter soft

Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1049666-Ten-Tools?p=11983527#post11983527

Filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8152684286_312b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330

Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
Tracking problems are usually solved with belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder
Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
There are some things that need to be modified
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62944
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_e1p6D-UyycWHd2V0VMTFVJMDQ/edit

NWG No Weld Grinder $25 plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
Every maker has a preference, new belts come out all the time, search for recent info
Ceramic, trizact and structured belts are expensive and have long life. Aluminium oxide are cheap and wear quickly
Some belts have rigid backing, J-flex have soft backing and can blend curves.
Blaze and Cubitron are popular


VFD Variable Speed made simple

Step pulleys are not as cheap as you think
Maska steel pulleys, plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to 1/2 the price of a sealed NEMA 4 VFD like a KB Electronics KBAC-27D

I like direct drive with no belts, a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with fine instant control.

NEMA 1 VFD’s metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.


Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use 1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a foot base for the KMG and NWG, a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with $100 shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors

The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.


VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.

There are cheaper, but the only VFD I found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D

It is NEMA 4 sealed
Good community and company support, manuals, diagrams, photos and settings.

Travis W reports running 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


Safety Equipment
Protect -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.

If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.

Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't Count.

The minimum I use are silicone half masks with P100 Filter
The soft silicone masks fit better
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...Ox_Uev7qe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=CH7500FP.pdf

and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-770030L-Silicone-Respirator/dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100-P100-Particulate-Cartridge/dp/B000UH6PSE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b.

Use VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes of face get fitted in person

Shave, test the fit every time.

For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Search

This searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...knife-making-worth-it?p=11980504#post11980504

Visit a shop in person
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1166688-How-to-get-a-shop-invite

V36 December 2014
Countavatar.jpg
 
That sure was alot of info. I will go through it all eventually, thanks.
I'm using the tapatalk app So i haven't got the option to edit my profile. I'm in the UK and live west of London.
If anyone knows, whats the best way to sell my future knives in UK ? I will make them.now before mybsword for experience but I don't want them laying around the house. Or in fact need them :/
 
Welcome to Shop Talk. Filling out all the info in your profile will help you and us a lot with answers and advice ( age, location, occupation, hobbies, etc.).



As someone who has made many swords and thousands of knives, I can tell you that you have a lot to learn before starting a sword. I usually say to try one after 100 knives and then decide when to try again.

Sword steels need to have high toughness. Merely tempering down a high hardness, lower toughness steel will not be enough. Steels like1060, 1070,1084, 80CrV, and 5160 are good sword choices. Higher alloy and harder edge steels like O-1, D-2, 1095, stainless steels, and many others are not so good.

Read the stickies, make some knives, and have fun. Swords will come in their own time.
 
You're going to find a lot of geographic specific info, especially suppliers if you also join British Blades forum.

forget about selling them, al your work will be shit for quite a long time.
 
12345678910 said:
You're going to find a lot of geographic specific info, especially suppliers if you also join British Blades forum.

forget about selling them, al your work will be shit for quite a long time.
Click to expand...


And to piggyback on that you will be proud of your work and you should be! But when you do your second you will see the flaws in your first. Then your third you will see the flaws in your second, ad infinitum.

But you will learn quite a bit with each one!
 
12345678910~ You deserve Kudos for that post.

That is one of the most informative, worth while posts I have seen. Actually, in a very long time. Thanks for your humility, patience, and willingness to help. Kudos. :thumbup::thumbup:

zuhayr94 ~ I would advise taking some of that 01 and making a knife like the Cattaraugus Quartermaster 225Q, but without the blood groove. It is a simple knife to grind, the lines can be left a bit unrefined. You need a Belt Sander or Grinder (with a belt for metal work), HSS Drill Bits (Titanium tipped, or the gold expensive ones), a drill (It is great to have a drill press), 350 grit sandpaper, metal finishing pad, 600grit wet/dry paper, 2000grit wet/dry paper, Some scrap aluminum, and a bandsaw would be wonderful - But if you don't have one; like me.. You will have to improvise. I use a hand coping saw to cut the metal. It takes a very long time, and you will need more than a few extra coping saw blades. I get the blades with the biggest teeth for a coping saw. When you saw through metal with a coping saw, stop periodically and check if the small blade is getting hot or not, as the teeth will wear away fast if the blade gets hot. I bet you would be surprised at how well a coping saw will go through metal. The hardest part is having the patience. Where there is a will there is a way. I have made knives out of Nicholson Bastard Files before, and they turn out nice. It is a great feeling to have and use a knife that you have made, and a fun project as well.

Learning to make knives takes a long time. You have to start somewhere.~~~
These are the processes I go through in making mine. I just make mine for fun.
The first step is a drawing/design of the knife. Use graph paper for this. Brainstorm and be creative. There are all kinds of mediums to use. Metals, Woods, Micartas, Acrylics, Polymers, Plastics, Rubber Ect. Draw out what you are going to make. A plan is first.

The second step is rough cutting and shaping the blade blank. MEASURE, then use a very fine sharpie marker to mark what medium you want to remove from the blank. The tang, and rough blade shape. Cut away the medium with your saw. Use your belt sander to clean up the saw marks and flush everything up so it matches your measurements. So there are no saw marks on the tang or blade at this point. Some people will choose to hit the blank with a metal finish pad or 350grit at this point.
bl023(1).jpg


The third step is grinding. Here the only thing you need to do is keep the SAME ANGLE EVERY TIME. Just like sharpening a knife, in grinding, angle is EVERYTHING. Some people will make a jig for this, but you would be surprised how many knife makers grind their knifes by hand. Keep a steady hand and focus on keeping the same angle. It doesn't take a lot of pressure to grind, let the belt do the work. The only thing your hands should be doing to keeping the angle as true as possible. It will take a lot of practice to perfect. Don't focus as much on the way the grind looks at the time, but HOW THE GRIND IS SYMETRICAL AND ANGLED. It will look different when you finish the metal with 350 sandpaper, metal finish pad, 600wet/dry, 1500 wet/dry, 2000wet/dry+... 2300-2500grit wet/dry is mirror satin just FYI. Here is the re-grind I did on my old Cattaraugus 225Q:
1008-182825_zpsd1d66c1f.jpg

1008-115102_zpsed375f9f.jpg

S7300569_zps0ba7e3b9.jpg


Before and after, you can see how I reground the pitted blade like a bowie. Kinda reminds me of a kabar MK1...
It is still very rough, and needs to be sanded with a flat sanding block down to 2000grit wet/dry for mirror...

After you get the grind done, finish with 2000grit+ wet/dry paper for satin. You will need to sand up in grit to take out the imperfections, just like with wood. This takes a lot of patience in itself... I still need to finish my Catt. to 2000grit. Probably will be done by tomorrow.

You can probably drill through the 01 steel with a normal drill and a Titanium drill bit, but It is best to use a Drill Press and an HSS Bit or Titanium Bit. The guard and pommel have to be drilled to the correct length as the tang, with holes from one end to the other. Then, you need to use a VERY SMALL file to file the holes square and fit the guard... I wish I had a picture of this to show you as an example. If you do a search on this site, you will find plenty of examples of this I am sure. ;) The pommel can be peened, attached with a pin that has been sanded flush to the pommel (Kabar 1217 is a great example of this), or screwed on to a threaded end of the tang. There is just so much to explain here.. I am not entirely sure how to correctly advise you. If you would like some help making a knife, PM me. I will give you my email and you can post the project in another thread. Let me know. I can tell you all I know to help you with your project. :thumbup::p
 
That's was very informative sir. Thankyou alot for that. I might just invest in a belt dander now before I start, I thought I'd just use my battery grinder with a sanding pad but I dint I will get it consistent enough...
 
Buy once, cry once. I went through a lot of grinders before learning my lesson and getting a real knifemaking one, and trust me, it matters. If you want to quit the process and never make knives again, use your battery operated one. You'd be better off just getting some good files, honestly. I wouldn't get anything cheaper than a Craftsman 2x42, although I made a few blades on a 1x30. I don't recommend that. Your learning curve will be much faster the better your grinder is. Swords are a lot more complicated, and if you are planning on doing the heat treat yourself, you'd better know how to fix warp. You'll get it, and likely in spades. If not, you need to be aware of who WILL heat treat an oil hardening steel in a sword length.
 
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