Henckels 5 Star or...

DarkReazon

DarkReazon

Joined
Jan 15, 2003
Messages
202
A family member (aware of my blade addiction) was asking my advice for a relatively high end cutlery set for the kitchen. I explained I didn't know that much about kitchen based cutlery, and said I would post here. They have had favourable results with Henckels 5 Star, but were wondering what other options were available. This family member cooks quite often, and is considering taking chef courses in the future. In particular, they are looking for a good cleaver, and bread knife. So what say you forumites? Any suggestions for cutlery sets welcome.


Cheers.

Shaun.
 
I just got hold of a Murray Carter Wabocho and I prefer it by a wide margin over the other kitchen knives I own. It slices better than any knife I've ever had, breezes through vegetables, meat, sushi, etc. Most likely I will still use my Henckels knives for chopping and dicing as the MC is a very light blade, but it is good to have some variety.

I've not found much difference between the Henckels knives and most of the others in their price range (I like the handles on Wustoff Trident knives a little better...). Kyocera makes some ceramic knives that hold their edge really well, but I always chipped mine, and once they go dullI had to get a diamond hone to get them back in shape. There are also quite a few brands I haven't tried though: Kershaw has some Damascus blades, Spyderco is well regarded, there are loads of hand forged Japanese blades out therein the hands of professional chefs.
 
I have used henckels for many years for serious cooking and I don't think you could do much better. I am very fussy about my tools and still use my henckels.I think their reputation is deserved.It's an excellent combination of edge holding and ease of sharpening and they have a very wide selection of shapes and sizes to fit your needs.
 
I've been looking at slowly upgrading my Lamson Sharps (the wife unit keeps on soaking the rosewood handles) so I've been doing some reading about the subject. I think if you do a search for Henckels in the forums you'll find that the general consensus is that Henckels quality has fallen (most of their knives aren't even made in Germany any more and their large knives are no longer forged from one piece). While researching at various stores around here, I've found that many of their knives are built too thick, needlessly adding weight. Also their chef's knives don't have enough "belly" for a good rocking motion.

In general, the Japanese made knives are thinner and better slicers, while the German designs are heavier and better for chopping using the weight of the knife.

Dollar for dollar, the Victorinox/Forschner seem to have an impressive reputation for high quality and low price. For high end knives, Messermeister and Wusthof seem to have much better reputations for quality and design than Henckels. I've found the design of Messermeister's chef's knives to be superior because their bolsters don't extend all the way down to the blade which makes sharpening much easier. And plus, Chris Reeve recommends and sells Messermeister so they must be good :). Japanese made Global also has a good reputation and their strange looking handles are remarkably comfortable.

Some other high end brands I've looked for but haven't handled yet are: Sabatier (French), Friedrick Dick (German of course), and Furi (Australian designed all-steel). There are others, of course, but that's probably a good list to start with :).
 
I prefer Sabatier Professionals. Truth be told, if I had to make the purchase again, I'd probably go Wusthoff Trident. From all I can see, they hold an edge a bit better than the Henckels or the Sabatiers.

If you're patient and keep visiting your local Tuesday Morning store, you might even find a great deal. I've seen $500.00 block sets of both Sabatier Pro and Wusthoff Tridents at Tuesday Morning for under $200.00!

Of course the three piece limited production Benchmade kitchen knives look pretty sweet...:)

jmx
 
I used to sell Cutco. In our demos we compared prices to the Henkels 5 star. The cutco are cheaper, but I have no idea if we quoted the recommended retail price for Henkels.

Cutcos are good. They use 440A at 55-57 RC. They cryo treat the knive and have a FOREVER guarantee.

Good luck with your decision.
 
It depends on what kind of knife you want.

Go with Global's "original" line if you like a very sharp light knife (57-58 HRc).

Go with Global's "forged" line if you want sacrifice some of the cutting ability for more heft (57-58 HRc).

Go with a random german brand (Messermeister, Wusthof, Henckels etc.) if you want a softer approx. 52-55 HRc, heavier, blunter knife.

Stay away from Sabatier unless you want their carbon steel (Au Carbone) line. Their other models are farmed out and low quality.

Whatever knife you end up with make sure that they pick up a spyderco 204 or similar v type sharpener.
 
For me, the Henkels (I have 4 star) or other German style knives are useful in the larger chef's models if one wants a heavier large knife for chopping and mincing. The Henkels have less rocker than some of the the other German brands, which can be a disadvantage.

For other tasks, I think that one can find lighter, thinner, stronger knives for the same or less money. The German knives seem to be on the heavy, soft side. I would be cautious about buying Henkels for tasks which require a flexible blade, like a filet knife.

Unlike some of their competitors, like Wustof, the Henkels (at least my 40-star) seem to be sintered, not forged. After some years the sinter line is visible about 1/4 inch ahead of the bolster running from edge to spine. The tang and bolster (as well as the very last part of the blade) are noticeably softer. IMO this is a poor substitute for diferential tempering or hardening. The area just ahead of the bolster has a tendancy to develop a hook with steeling over time anyway, being softer, and next to an overly massive bolster that extends all the way to the edge exacerbates this. I've had to do some serious filing and coarse honing to restore full rocker to the edge of my chef's knives. Having to grind or file down a bolster this big is ridiculous.

My Henkles are somewhat brittle also, at least in the thinner models. Broke about 3/8 of the tip of the slicer off when I got bumped while steeling it.
I've also broken one the "mini-santoku" (think that's what they call it, its a thin little sheep's foot) while stropping--right at the sinter line.

IMO, they are an OK, but somewhat overpriced product. In general, I think that is better to accumulate knives from various manufacturers that seem best suited to a particular task instead of getting a big set from a single manufacturer. You can find out what features suit you best for various types of knives, what knives you use enough to buy the very best, etc. May not be as spiffy for kitchen deocor, but in the end, the performance should be better fot the same or less money.

The knife I now use the most is a thin light 10" SS chef's blade with rat-tail tang I bought from Williams and Sonoma over 20 years ago. Just says "hand-forged in France". Takes and keeps a much finer acute edge, and is still soft enought for easy sharpening. It comes very close to a Japanese vegetable knive I have. I can easily go from a very toothy edge to a polished edge or back with a couple passes on a ceramic stick or loaded strop. I mainly use the heavy Henkels when I want to finely chop up a bunch of stuff and I don't care if it gets a little mashed or not (or want it mashed, like garlic). Also when cutting things like winter squash with strong skins.

I actually find that a wood handled, carbon-steel Ericson Mora knife that whose grind I convexed edge and whose bolster and handle I sealed to be a much better peeling knive than the Henkels parer. It just gets much sharper. The Ericson won't slice hard veggies without breaking them because it is pretty thick, but for that I use the old no-name chef's knife alrady described. Most of the time, these two knives work better for me than any of the Henkels.

My two cents, sorry for ramble.
 
I have the Henckels 5 star series, 7 or 8 piece incl butcher block. Very fine and functional cutlery. Lately though, I have been adding to it with Forschner knives. I think they are almost as good, and considerably cheaper. Forschner gets my vote for best bang for the buck. I do like the extremely fine ribbed steel that came with the Henckels, and the block is excellently made for a lifetime. The Forschner ceramic steel, while seemingly expensive at ~$15 is very fine. Can't go wrong either way.
 
Firkin, sintered knives ?that implies powder metal is that what you mean or do they use a different steel for the bolster and tang ? I must confess that my newest henckels is at least 5 years old , if quality has dropped that's too bad.
 
mete:

Henckel uses a PM bolster to imitate to look of their traditional forged line. This is plasma welded to the tang and "flash butt welded" (probably some process similar to stud welding) to the (stamped) blade.

They say that their Sintermetal Component Technology (SCT) was developed to allow the use of different steels in different areas of the knife.

I say that it allows their bottom line to look better.



see http://www.best-german-cutlery.com/manufacture.html
 
Chef's Choice Trizor Cutlery (www.edgecraft.com) is pretty hard, with a Rockwell of 60 IIRC.

Anyone tried them? I have not.

I posted a question about the steel a while back. Based on info about the composition and metalurgical processes gleaned from their marketing info, it looked like it might be BG42.

Here are a couple interesting threads on their products:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=260308&highlight=chefs+choice

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132229&highlight=trizor (This thread has some other observations that are relevant to the current topic, too, like bolsters versus no bolsters).

One of the threads says Spyderco had the steel tested. It was not a known steel, but had very good qualities (similar to VG-10).

IIRC the knives come with primary, secondary and tertiary bevels for a "pseudo-convex edge" (my term, not theirs) and their sharpeners create the same sort of edge.

Fallkniven and Spyderco also makes some nice kitchen knives.
 
Henckels is not bad. My grandpa chipped the tip of one, so I agree it's brittle. I want a Kasumi set(layered forged dasmascus steel) and Global.
 
All I know is that Henkels' web site says that that the 4-star line employs their 'SCT technology', and that unless one buys this line at a deep discount (which I have mostly done) one can buy genuine forged cultery at about the same price.

I also know that filing down the massive bolster to restore rocker is a big pain, and that I have broken one thin bladed knife right at the sinter line. I am not impressed with the 4-stars which appear to be the next to the top of their line.

The five-star line, if forged, may be a different animal.

My 4-stars are at least 6 years old, and I was indeed told that different metals are used in different areas of the knife, though the cutlery shop did not use the word "sintered" as I recall.

I know that some are very imprssed with the forged line from Two Oxen brand from France. They even offer forged table settings. I've purcased a large middle of the line Messermeister for a relative, and it seemed to be a lot of bang for the buck.
 
Hmm, I just looked up Two Oxen (Due Buoi) and it looks like they are from Italy not France. Both romance languages though :). Hadn't heard of them, and they look interesting. Thanks, firkin.
 
We use the Victorinox/Forschner series at the meat market i work at. They seem to be ok, but I am not sold on them for heavy use. They seem to loose their blade very fast, and have to be sharpened. A lot of the big meat cutters use their own sets. Ill ask around for what they use.
 
Due Buoi are better than Henks, course I may be a little pred. My brother is the Dist. for the USA & Canada! I have sold some to cooks who have Henks & other brands, THEY tell me they think Two Ox are better,they also cost less than Henks & are just "flat out better"!!!Ck. out where Henks are made,you may be surprised!!
Jim
 
"Hmm, I just looked up Two Oxen (Due Buoi) and it looks like they are from Italy not France."

ooooops!:o
 
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