Hinderer xm18 gen 6 vs older models?

R

ribeyemediumrare

Joined
Oct 5, 2018
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111
The xm18 has recently grown on me and Im strongly considering finding a 3.5 inch harpoon spanto model for my next knife. Now I understand that the complaint about the older models were the detent being too weak (bad flipping action), the teflon washers and lack of steel lock-bar insert. While I like the idea of the gen 6 being good to go, I am entertaining the idea of finding an older model for a good price, getting the blade reground and redo a working finish, modify the detent so it flips, and convert to PB washers.
Some of my reasoning for this would be that the detent would be easy to modify, pb washers easy to find, and I have heard some prefer the carbodized ti lockbar because of the feeling of it locking up compared to the steel insert. The bearings on the gen 6 are cool but being a hard use knife I think I would prefer the simplicity and low maintenance of PB washers, which can be used on the gen 6 but something tells me the spacers would bug me as far as keeping the washers from spinning and other things.
So given my thoughts would you recommend the gen 6 or save money with an older model since I plan to modify anyway.
 
Gen 4 is my favorite. I will not be buying a Gen 6 again. Already did. Not a fan of the bearings or tri way system or the buried detent on the Gen 6. It also make opening with the thumb very difficult .

If it just ran on PB washers I would feel differently. I don't like the silly milled pockets and spacers.

If you won't beat on it and you love bearings. Then it's for you. I mentioned in the previous thread I tuned up a gen-6 for a buddy and the bearings were already creating dimples in the titanium from moderate use .

There should be a solid stainless washer to protect the titanium if the bearings are used.

I understand it's a win for some. But it does nothing for me due to the reasons above.
 
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BellaBlades said:
Gen 4 is my favorite. I will not be buying a Gen 6 again. Already did. Not a fan of the bearings or tri way system or the buried detent on the Gen 6. It also make opening with the thumb very difficult .

If it just ran on PB washers I would feel differently. I don't like the silly milled pockets and spacers.

If you won't beat on it and you love bearings. Then it's for you. I mentioned in the previous thread I tuned up a gen-6 for a buddy and the bearings were already creating dimples in the titanium from moderate use .

There should be a solid stainless washer to protect the titanium if the bearings are used.

I understand it's a win for some. But it does nothing for me due to the reasons above.
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So, wouldn't just using the PB washers that come w/a Gen 6 solve this "problem?"
 
sgt1372 said:
So, wouldn't just using the PB washers that come w/a Gen 6 solve this "problem?"
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There is an extra spacer you need to use for the PB or Teflon Washers, due to the extra thickness of bearings.
 
sgt1372 sgt1372

The tri way system is not very precise in my opinion. As I stated I don't like having steel washers to fill in the milled gaps followed the the PB over it. Also.

On the two Gen 6 I had to work on. Both had horrible action and off center blade.Even after carefully polishing the washers down.

That's still leaves the detent which is not the greatest for me either.

Unlike the simple fix of throwing PB on a Gen 4. The only issue that annoys me about Teflon is how the washer thickness fluctuates with the temperature.

I understand many will disagree with me. But each of us sharing our opinions will only make the knives better. Hopefully.

I only recently got a Gen 4 like new with PB washers installed. I'm blown away by the perfect action and fit.
 
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BellaBlades said:
Gen 4 is my favorite. I will not be buying a Gen 6 again. Already did. Not a fan of the bearings or tri way system or the buried detent on the Gen 6. It also make opening with the thumb very difficult .

If it just ran on PB washers I would feel differently. I don't like the silly milled pockets and spacers.

If you won't beat on it and you love bearings. Then it's for you. I mentioned in the previous thread I tuned up a gen-6 for a buddy and the bearings were already creating dimples in the titanium from moderate use .

There should be a solid stainless washer to protect the titanium if the bearings are used.

I understand it's a win for some. But it does nothing for me due to the reasons above.
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Thats exactly the thought I had, that the spacers would maybe make the PB washer action feel worse than previous xm18's with pb washers installed . The lack of a steel washer backing for the bearing is another concern I had, how bad was the dimpling? Also can you explain what you mean by the buried detent, do you think gen 4 detents are easy to modify so it flips well?
 
Both of my Gen 6s had awful detents, same as the Gen 4. They also had an issue I've never seen on other Hinderers, which is that the lock bar would flex slightly when checking the blade for vertical play. It wouldn't unlock, but it was worrying, and not at all like the vault-like feeling from the Gen 4s. It really seems like the lock geometry needs to be fixed on the Gen 6s.

To get my current Gen 6 to flip reliably on washers and to help address the lock motion, I had to increase the lockbar tension so high that the lock could theoretically travel completely across the blade tang if allowed to do so. It's still not a very good flipper, and the thumb studs are now very difficult to use, but at least it's better now. From what I can tell, most people praising the Gen 6s use bearings, which will allow almost any knife with a horrid detent to flip open. With PB washers, it's a bit of a different story.

Save your money and get an older model. I wish I had done that.
 
ribeyemediumrare said:
Thats exactly the thought I had, that the spacers would maybe make the PB washer action feel worse than previous xm18's with pb washers installed . The lack of a steel washer backing for the bearing is another concern I had, how bad was the dimpling? Also can you explain what you mean by the buried detent, do you think gen 4 detents are easy to modify so it flips well?
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The dimpling could be felt it you open the blade and rotate it back and forth. Making it gritty to try and open slowly by the thumb.

Not really something you could feel with a flip. But it still annoyed the heck out of me.

The Gen 6 detent is almost buried so that the framlock practically sits against the blade with no room for wear and a harsh release angle. I can draw a picture to explain.

Also I don't think you need to adjust the detent on a Gen 4. The issue is the some of them did not have enough bend in the lock bar. Adding a little bend so that the lock bar can make it perfect. But every detent or lock bend can vary on a knife.
 
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marrenmiller said:
Both of my Gen 6s had awful detents, same as the Gen 4. They also had an issue I've never seen on other Hinderers, which is that the lock bar would flex slightly when checking the blade for vertical play. It wouldn't unlock, but it was worrying, and not at all like the vault-like feeling from the Gen 4s. It really seems like the lock geometry needs to be fixed on the Gen 6s.

To get my current Gen 6 to flip reliably on washers and to help address the lock motion, I had to increase the lockbar tension so high that the lock could theoretically travel completely across the blade tang if allowed to do so. It's still not a very good flipper, and the thumb studs are now very difficult to use, but at least it's better now. From what I can tell, most people praising the Gen 6s use bearings, which will allow almost any knife with a horrid detent to flip open. With PB washers, it's a bit of a different story.

Save your money and get an older model. I wish I had done that.
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Well said. I noticed the lock bar on the Gen 6 allowed for a touch if strange play or flex.

The Gen 4 will not budge . Ultimately every Gen 4 might not be perfect. But Smooth action and perfect lock up are most important. Other things can take a minor tweak.

I'm lucky to get a G4 right on the money this time around.
 
BellaBlades said:
The dimpling could be felt it you open the blade and rotate it back and forth. Making it gritty to try and open slowly by the thumb.

Not really something you could feel with a flip. But it still annoyed the heck out of me.

The Gen 6 detent is almost buried so that the framlock practically sits against the blade with no room for wear and a harsh release angle. I can draw a picture to explain.

Also I don't think you need to adjust the detent on a Gen 4. The issue is the some of them did not have enough bend in the lock bar. Adding a little bend so that the lock bar can make it perfect. But every detent or lock bend can vary on a knife.
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Ah so the way the detent sits so deep makes the flipping action unpleasant because it has to pop and grind against the hole too much? All I would have to do is increase lockbar tension on a gen 4? Ive made a walmart knife able to flip by enlarging the detent hole slightly and making the "wall" of the hole sharper, is this how it could be done on a gen 4 or would the size of the detent ball have an affect as well? I think you have convinced me to go with the gen 4 route.
 
I've only had one Gen 6 but the action and lockup we great. I've had several of the other generations and while none had a show stopping action they weren't awful either. I've found that I prefer non flippers in the earlier generations, and a non flipper with PB washers is probably what I'll go for when I'm looking for my next Hinderer.
 
ribeyemediumrare said:
Ah so the way the detent sits so deep makes the flipping action unpleasant because it has to pop and grind against the hole too much? All I would have to do is increase lockbar tension on a gen 4? Ive made a walmart knife able to flip by enlarging the detent hole slightly and making the "wall" of the hole sharper, is this how it could be done on a gen 4 or would the size of the detent ball have an affect as well? I think you have convinced me to go with the gen 4 route.
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Bingo on the detent issue with the 6.

Ive never had to mess with a detent hole besides weakening a detent.

Personally I'd get a 4. Use it good and hard. Beat on it closed and open a little. She settles in and then worst case add a tiny bit of bend. Not altering anything factory and you still carry the warranty .
 
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Im_your_huckleberry said:
I've only had one Gen 6 but the action and lockup we great. I've had several of the other generations and while none had a show stopping action they weren't awful either. I've found that I prefer non flippers in the earlier generations, and a non flipper with PB washers is probably what I'll go for when I'm looking for my next Hinderer.
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Did you try the gen 6 with both the bearings and Pb washers? Do you remember a difference in the sound and feel of lockup between the steel insert and ti on steel? This might be purely coincidence but on all the framelocks ive handled the ones with no lockbar insert seemed to have a much more satisfying feel
 
I did try both. I ultimately preferred the bearings. Honestly there wasn’t much of a difference to me between the lock bar insert and the Ti on steel. But if that’s something you prefer then get an older model and get some PB washers. Seems like that would be the best option for you.
 
OP - you basically said every reason why a gen 4 should be preferred to a gen 6, which I completely agree to. I also echo what BellaBlades BellaBlades said. I have three gen 4s and will not trade any of them straight up with a gen 6.

The bad news for you is, as more people realize the potential issues of gen 6, they may not rush to sell their gen 4 for cheap.
 
I am enjoying the Gen 6 so far, haven't put the PB washers in yet... will do this weekend.
 
Got my gen 4 on teflon, super smooth and a drop shut action. Never tried one of PB but I dont see any major advantage to it.
 
Yohanlegend said:
Got my gen 4 on teflon, super smooth and a drop shut action. Never tried one of PB but I dont see any major advantage to it.
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PB feels a little more stiff when testing for side to side play, and won't disintegrate over time or after a bunch of disassembly/reassembly cycles, or if a bunch of abrasive debris gets into them.
 
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