Historical evidence on Damascus?

nozh2002

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Does any evidence that ancient damascus was made out of different types of steel exist? I mean ancient authors or results of some research etc...

As I understand Wilkinson Sword in Brittan start trying to reproduce old swords and came with this idea to pattern weld it from different steel, but does old smiths actually use different steels. Same pattern may be result of single steel pattern welding as it is shown here:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/steel.html

If you have any - can you provide some links?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Yes , the Vikings used it as this early sword shows.
 

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I know about this, but it is not steel + another steel. It is iron + steel and also edge are steel only.

Question I have is are any evidence that modern damascus with different production steel welded together in sandwich way are same as old ancient damascus.

Reason I am asking is not made here:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/steel.html

Where Japanese smith (Mr. KOKAJI I assume) urge against this and saying that it is all mono steel... It is all about nihhon-to, but I am wondering if same is correct for Damascus, so I am looking for some evidence that different steels were in use in old times.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
In order to understand why an ancient smith used particular metals, we'd need to be able to go back in time and read their minds. All we can do is look at the end product.

We do know that until fairly recently, knowledge of steel's actual makeup was little known. We're pretty sure people in the past knew, for instance, that carbon was an essential element of steel, and that too much is a bad thing. But did they know that for different purposes a .95% carbon steel was better than a 1.05% carbon steel? I have to be skeptical about that.

Many of the older accounts of blacksmithing discuss selection of materials based on intended purpose. If a smith was working with unknown scrap and needed to make a spring, a piece of the appropriate size might be selected and tested to see if it would harden--if so, it might be used.

Welding pieces of scrap into a larger piece for use when large piece of stock was needed was a common practice. Using the cementation process to produce steel is easier if working with smaller pieces, to later be welded into larger pieces and worked repeatedly to produce a piece of relatively homogeneous steel. The problem with this is that every batch was different. If a smith took a number of pieces of scrap and worked up the stock for a larger product, the end result was something like what we know as pattern-welded damascus. (I actually had this result a couple of times back when I was a kid.) Homogeneous steel wasn't available until the introduction of the crucible process in the mid-1700s.

An analogous process sometimes occurs when wrought iron (for example, in the Viking and Celtic blades) was used with high-carbon steel. the materials seem to have been selected for their qualities--steel for hardenability and springiness, and wrought iron for toughness. Carbon migrates from the higher-carbon material to the lower-carbon material.

Both of these processes make it impossible to determine if different steels were used in order to create the patterns.

Then there is the problem that very few people who have ancient blades are willing to submit them to testing in order to analyze the actual carbon content of the steel. We can only work by analogy here, by assessing the results of modern experiments. In one example of piled stock I did, there was enough carbon migration between the high-carbon steel and the wrought iron that I ended up with a piece with a carbon content of about .6%, which we'd barely call high-carbon steel. But the barstock showed a pattern when etched.

I suspect similar things occurred 2,000 years ago but all we can do is analyze the surviving blades--we'll never know the reason for the smith's selection of raw materials.

Hopefully, that will be enough babbling to get someone who really knows what they are doing (instead of just a dilettante like me!) to come out of the woodwork.
 
Coffeecup - this is from the article I posted, in reference to the scientific testing of old blades in your post:

"Damascus blades were donated to science for study is reported in the 1924 paper of Zschokke.13 A famous explorer and collector, Henri Moser, amassed a collection of some 2,000 Damascene blades and donated two daggers and four swords to Zschokke for study. The Moser collection is now displayed in the Berne Historical Museum in Switzerland, and the remaining pieces from the four swords of the Zschokke study remain there. Recently, Ernst J. Kläy of the Berne Museum donated a small sample of each sword for further study to be conducted.

This article presents the results of a study of these four samples . . . "


So it appears someone did test older blades; apparently, they figured that the blades were made of steel from a specific area of India (?) I've got to go back and read it again.

thx - cpr
 
Be careful of the definitions ! There is pattern welded [ folded steel] and there is Wootz which is made form crucible steel and still has the remnants of the cast structure. The term damascus has been used for both ! Today the term damascus is usually used for pattern welded.
 
I know about bulat (or wootz). It has similar to damascus pattern:

news-118.jpg


This is Ivan Kirpichev blade and you may see it may looks like made out of layers of different steel but it is not.

This is why I am wondering if in the old time thay actually make layered damascus from different types of steel - which is common practice now. Question is is it accurate to say that it is same technology? Are there any studies or ancient authors how explicetly mentioned two or more different steel were used?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Intersting -Please forgive if I double up on a link.

I had read in Scientific American or Nat Geographic an article about a decade ago claiming to have rediscovered Damascus steel. That the process had been lost in ancient times - somone had reciscovered it in the early 1900's but never shared it - but was rediscoverd by reserchers relatively recently

The principle was that it was not a laminated blade but a very flexible but very high carbon blade. That the principle behind making it was to slowly cool a high carbon ingot (over 3 days) to allow crystalline structures to form. Then to forge at much lower temperatures which did not destroy the structure and hence kept the flexibility.

It asserted the reason why it was lost was not access to the ingots - which westerners got but that the western smiths did not know that it had to be forged cooler. Hence they heated it too hot - lost the structure and eneded up with a brittle high carbon blade - and this added to the mystique
 
Intersting -Please forgive if I double up on a link.

I had read in Scientific American or Nat Geographic an article about a decade ago claiming to have rediscovered Damascus steel. That the process had been lost in ancient times - somone had reciscovered it in the early 1900's but never shared it - but was rediscoverd by reserchers relatively recently

The principle was that it was not a laminated blade but a very flexible but very high carbon blade. That the principle behind making it was to slowly cool a high carbon ingot (over 3 days) to allow crystalline structures to form. Then to forge at much lower temperatures which did not destroy the structure and hence kept the flexibility.

It asserted the reason why it was lost was not access to the ingots - which westerners got but that the western smiths did not know that it had to be forged cooler. Hence they heated it too hot - lost the structure and eneded up with a brittle high carbon blade - and this added to the mystique

It was Verhoeven article about damascus steel (not damascus blades - which I am asking about) - this is how Achim Wirtz describes it.

From that time bulat has been developed a lot mostly in Russia. Now they routinely produce well performing bulats - outperform Finnish carbon pukkos.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=575147

Kirpiche was able to reproduce at least pattern according to Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani

http://www.persianmirror.com/Article_det.cfm?id=917&getArticleCategory=41&getArticleSubCategory=117

But are there any evidence of pattern welded from different types of steel made in old times?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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