HO vs standard fluorescent shop fixtures?

NickWheeler

NickWheeler

Joined
Dec 3, 1999
Messages
9,437
Hey guys-



So I have to readily show my ignorance here, but I'm hoping some of you that are more electrically geared than I am (which clearly won't take much) can help me out here.

I went and picked up a couple more 8' 4 lamp fixtures at HD last night. I bought the HO (high output) fixtures because that's what I already had above my grinders and workbench. It's this unit:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...rip-Light-TUNS-2-32-MVOLT-1-4-GEBHL/202193181

And I passed on this model:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...te-Strip-Light-TC-2-32-120-1-4-GESB/100192753

It appeared to me, that you get a better balast and hopefully longer life over the standard fixture. But the store display also shows the HO rated at something like 12,800 lumens and the standard at around 10,000 lumens.


The part I'm mixed up on... Is that I don't know of, nor can I find any reference to... a High Output T8 bulb. There are HO T12 and HO T5 bulbs... (FWIW I decided against T5s even though their blinding light is a bit mesmerizing, because everything I read said they are best suited to a ceiling height of at least 14' and with any ceiling height under 10' they would cause a lot of unwanted glare).

The HO fixture is rated to light up in -20 F compared to 0 F for the standard... but my shop will never be 0 F, let alone -20 F.

So comparing apples to apples... Is the $60 fixture actually going to put out more light with the same T8 bulbs than the $40 fixture??? What am I missing here???


I have typically used 6500k "daylight" bulbs in my shop fixtures, but I purchased some 5000k "natural" bulbs last night and so far am very impressed with them. They actually have a higher lumen rating than the 6500k, and they're just enough "softer" so as to not have that blue hue to them.


I'm gonna need at least 10 more fixtures to complete the shop lighting, so that $20 difference will add up...


Thanks fellas. :)
 
I have six fixtures in my shop with four bulbs each (T5 bulbs) but I have 14' ceilings. They were expensive to have installed, but every time I go into the shop, I appreciate that I have proper lighting. Lighting isn't something I would look to cut corners on. Every person who has come to my shop has commented on the light quality. I didn't think people would notice much, but I was wrong. I use the 5000k bulbs in the house wherever I can. The light isn't strong enough to have an affect on SAD, which requires 10,000lux, but the 5000k color is associated with positive moods. If you need a boost in light, you can always pit some aliuminum foil between the fixture and the bulb. Its a trick we used to use when I was breeding reptiles to give a boost to the UVB lighting we used. It makes a noteable difference.
 
Hey Nick,

For what's its worth I did some research into bulbs when breeding corals. These guys used a PAR meter to measure the output and told me that HO were a waste and to stay away from them. Most guys were pretty adamant about this and I hit the subject pretty hard because I didn't want to go LED or metal halide. PAR is not a direct tie to lumens per say but it is close and were I in your shoes I would probably ditch the HO and just get the regular ones. 200$ is a big savings over a difference you probably wouldn't notice (and you can buy a new tool with it :D).

If money wasn't an issue I'd scrap the fluorescents and go LED, based on dealing with them in the marine world and what I've read on shop forums.
 
NickWheeler said:
Hey guys-



So I have to readily show my ignorance here, but I'm hoping some of you that are more electrically geared than I am (which clearly won't take much) can help me out here.

I went and picked up a couple more 8' 4 lamp fixtures at HD last night. I bought the HO (high output) fixtures because that's what I already had above my grinders and workbench. It's this unit:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...rip-Light-TUNS-2-32-MVOLT-1-4-GEBHL/202193181

And I passed on this model:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...te-Strip-Light-TC-2-32-120-1-4-GESB/100192753

It appeared to me, that you get a better balast and hopefully longer life over the standard fixture. But the store display also shows the HO rated at something like 12,800 lumens and the standard at around 10,000 lumens.


The part I'm mixed up on... Is that I don't know of, nor can I find any reference to... a High Output T8 bulb. There are HO T12 and HO T5 bulbs... (FWIW I decided against T5s even though their blinding light is a bit mesmerizing, because everything I read said they are best suited to a ceiling height of at least 14' and with any ceiling height under 10' they would cause a lot of unwanted glare).

The HO fixture is rated to light up in -20 F compared to 0 F for the standard... but my shop will never be 0 F, let alone -20 F.

So comparing apples to apples... Is the $60 fixture actually going to put out more light with the same T8 bulbs than the $40 fixture??? What am I missing here???


I have typically used 6500k "daylight" bulbs in my shop fixtures, but I purchased some 5000k "natural" bulbs last night and so far am very impressed with them. They actually have a higher lumen rating than the 6500k, and they're just enough "softer" so as to not have that blue hue to them.


I'm gonna need at least 10 more fixtures to complete the shop lighting, so that $20 difference will add up...


Thanks fellas. :)
Click to expand...

Looking strictly at the numbers in your post, you are paying 50% more to achieve a 20 increase on the lighting.

My first response would be to get the lower cost fixture and just get more of them.
1.5x the number of fistures will give you 150% light instead of 120% at the same cost )(ignoring tube costs)




Keep in mind in terms of colour, you can mix tubes in the fixture


I looked at those links and I dont see mention of "high output"
What I take high output lights to be, the tubes have one nipple on each end instead of two pins
and one side of the fixture is spring loaded.

It makes changing the tubes super simple compared to getting those pins lined up and twisted just right.



I've never seen high output lanps in Home depot, always an electrical supplier

Apparently they do exist
https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/4726/FHO-048CWT8.html


If you're looking at a bulk purchase, maybe it's worth a phone call quote to a few suppliers?

If you're working at that mill, try calling their suppliers and asking as an employee, do you get their discount ?

I've had that work really well for me in the past.
 
Hey Nick I have one 4' 2 bulb T5 fixture in the middle of my shop and several t8 fixtures around the perimeter of the shop. I do not have any glare problems myself and wish I had more of the t5 fixtures to replace the t8s. I would say that one t5 unit puts out more light then all the t8s put together. I my shop is kind of small @ 20'x30 and have 8' ceilings in my shop.
As for HO t8 bulbs I do not think so but there are some big difference in quality of the t8 ballasts. With the cheaper ones you can clearly see the high frequency flicker and they do not cold start as well. The above is just my experience others on here may have different opinions. If I where you I would go and get one t5 unit an do some testing with it before you relight the shop. They truly are impressive.

Brett Mathews
 
Hey Nick I have one 4' 2 bulb T5 fixture in the middle of my shop and several t8 fixtures around the perimeter of the shop. I do not have any glare problems myself and wish I had more of the t5 fixtures to replace the t8s. I would say that one t5 unit puts out more light then all the t8s put together. I my shop is kind of small @ 20'x30 and have 8' ceilings in my shop.
As for HO t8 bulbs I do not think so but there are some big difference in quality of the t8 ballasts. With the cheaper ones you can clearly see the high frequency flicker and they do not cold start as well. The above is just my experience others on here may have different opinions. If I where you I would go and get one t5 unit an do some testing with it before you relight the shop. When I was rebuilding my shop I had the same questions as you and read many of the threads online about the + & - of t5. Ultimately I only got the one t5 fixture mainly as a test but now wish I would have put in all T5 regardless of what the numbers say. They truly are impressive.

Brett Mathews
 
When I was looking around to set up lights for my pepper plants, every cheap setup led me to regular flourescent or minis. Im surprised you could find t12 bulbs as they are mostly phased out here, I can only get t8 or t5 unless I hit a specialty store. I have a small shop (12x12) and have one dual 4' t8 hanging light in the center, about 9' up, using 6500k and the have same thing 3' above my work bench.

As a side note, I use minis for my peppers and currently have 5 plants producing on one 45w 4100k and 7 on one 23w 6500. These are in my cubicle at work and people have commented that they come by for the glow and try for a tan. I have them in plain clamp work light fixtures.

If you are really looking at getting a good light setup, go to an aquarium place and pick up some linkable ballasts and lights and you can make your own setup for less than HD and actually have the light where you want it. T5s are due to replace t8 in the near future, they are more reliable, and can put out more light with less watt usage. Although they will initially be more expensive, they will last much longer (some say up to two times longer) than t8 and much more than t12. My shop rarely gets above 12 in the winter (50?) and thats only if I put my portable heater on and I have no issue with cold start.
 
I'm with the Count on this one. Use more of the lesser expensive ones. Unless there's a lamp you need to use that demands it (as in for a specific application, like your pot grow house - let's face it, we know what you're doing out in that shop, man... Heheh).
 
Keep in mind that the relationship between distance and light intensity is not linear


I know you have to keep overhead clearance above machines for using a gantry crane or whatever, but


The closer the brighter

Maybe you can chain hang some lower over the benches

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law

The intensity (or illuminance or irradiance) of light or other linear waves radiating from a point source (energy per unit of area perpendicular to the source) is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the source; so an object (of the same size) twice as far away, receives only one-quarter the energy (in the same time period).
Click to expand...

doubling the distance reduces illumination to one quarter
Click to expand...

to double illumination, reduce the distance to 0.7 (square root of 1/2)
Click to expand...



The closer the better, until you burn your forehead on halogen fixtures.
 
Thanks guys. I appreciate the replies. :)

Sam- You're right, that link does not show anything about high output, but they are definitely marked as such in the store and on the box/light itself. Going through work isn't an option, as they strictly won't do anything like that. Interestingly, they have just recently upgraded all the basement lighting to waterproof T5 fixtures. They're like $350 each for a 4' (4 bulb) fixture and they literally purchased thousands of them (yea, it's a BIG place! LOL).

I meant to make a point of asking whether the ballast in the more expensive light would last longer than the other one... because I agree that on lumens alone, it makes more sense to buy more of the less expensive fixture.


Brett- Thanks for the input on the T5. Everything I read said they weren't good for "low" ceilings, but you're right...the only way for me to know is to try one in my shop.

Part of my decision not to go with T5 was also based on the fact that the T5 HO bulbs at HomeDepot are $10 EACH and only come in cool white... but I found some sources online for both 5000k and 6500k T5 HO bulbs and they're only $2-4 each when bought in case quantity.

With that in mind (and if they won't cause glare in my 8' ceiling shop) then it actually ends up being cheaper to go with the $70 T5 fixture. HomeDepot lists the T5 HO fixture at 20,000 lumens! :eek: :cool:


Good point about indoor growing tattooedfreak and Matt--- I've never even smoked a cigarette, but there is a vast array of professional potheads in Washington that I could learn about lights from. :p
 
Oh and FWIW- on some of the other shop forums I visit, there are a lot of guys that recommend simply buying the $12 4' T8 fixture from WalMart. While the initial cost of those would be cheap... in my experience they do not last very long. I had several in the old shop and they would die after only 6 months to a year. My Dad put some in his wood working shop and had the same experience. So in the long run those are not cost-wise, IMHO.
 
i have 8' T8s in the shop(4 x4' tubes per strip) its the brightest my any of my shops have ever been but i know that i will be upgrading down the road with LEDs thats what i have up staris in the "office/ clean room " in the clean room i also have many spot lighting options depending on what im working on
 
Nick if you want to give T5's a try, go to an indoor garden store (as mentioned) and pick up a single ballast. I think I paid around $10 for one 24" ballast and bulb. This is at least a cheap way to try them out and if you don't like it I promise you will find a use for it as supplemental lighting somewhere in the shop. I've had the same ballasts lighting my saltwater tank for 3 years now getting splashed with water and covered in salt creep with no issues, though I do pay about 35-40$ per 24" bulb but they are high end for marine environments, you can get lights for the shop cheaper and in any color spectrum from red to actinic.

You can also get a good reflector or make one to help with some of the glare. Not sure this will solve it but I really don't see how you avoid this with any of the newer and brighter lighting. High end Cree style LEDs are even brighter but I doubt guys are ruling them out because they don't have a 15' ceiling! The cost savings and additional lighting make it hard to pass them up!
 
Nick, I do not know a heck of a lot about lighting which is why I put in ceiling fixtures that have two 4 foot 40 watt Phillips cool white bulbs each. I mounted three end to end and about 8 foot away I put 3 more fixtures parallel to the first to eliminate shadows. My shop is a 630 Sq. Ft. garage so it has 12 bulbs total. I did this before I ever made a knife. The ceiling and walls are painted flat white and the cabinets are all semi gloss white so the light bounces all over. I have found this to be entirely adequate if not very bright lighting. My point is that maybe the paint on your shop walls and ceiling can have a very big impact on the way the lighting eliminate shadows and allows working at night without eye strain. Like most of you I have draftsman's type lights and gooseneck lamps on all of my equipment except a few that really makes it easy to see my work. The Phillips bulbs I buy come from Home depot and Lowe's in boxes of a dozen ( or ten) for about $30.00 I think and the fixtures are from the same places and were the cheapest I could find at the time. I have never replaced a fixture or ballast in the 14 years at this house. I replace about four bulbs every 8 or 9 months it seems because I replace by twos. I would look to bulb availability and cost before installing new ones. If I had a dedicated shop for knife making then I would probably spend the bulk of my lighting dollars on a couple skylights for daytime use instead of expensive lighting . I would not look to pot growers for expertise in knife making lighting but maybe for the best brownie mix. Larry
 
Hey Nick,

There are T5 HO's... luminaires and lamps (bulbs and fixtures). A T8 "HO" is likely to be a high Service Factor ballast. See this... http://ateam.lbl.gov/Design-Guide/DGHtm/ballastfactor.htm

Nick, in the end, it's lumens. The lamp will have a lumen output at 1.00 Service Factor. The luminaire will reduce that... greatly, if it has a lens. A round tube puts equal light out 360 degrees. The part of the bulb not pointing to where you want the light ain't putting any there except through reflection. Distance will reduce "that". Reflectors help. There is no such thing as a perfect reflector. What is called White White paint helps (about 95% reflectance).

It's not efficient to try to task light with general lighting. General lighting is so a person don't walk into the pointy end of the anvil. Task lighting is for doing stuff. Search IESNA and look for tables on lighting for different uses/tasks. They are engineers so you know the language and the point of reference. It's about the amount of light a person of an age needs to adequately perform a specific task.

Neutral color in lamps is about 3500 Kelvin. Anything lower is towards yellow... orange... red. Anything higher is towards blue. The sky is blue and it surely is "natural" light... BUT... everything it touches is blued. Humans like 2500 - 2800 K. We seeped that (permanently) into our brain pans being happy, happy, happy with fire. Our eyes recognize color as normal in that Kelvin range. Light/things that is/are not the "right" color causes eye strain

You are going to need amounts of light to do tasks. You don't need that amount of light everywhere. The everywhere light should be 1:10 to the task light, as a max difference. 1:5 is going to be better but it means more general lighting. Computer heavy use in office settings try to keep this ratio at 1:3 (or 3:1... depending on what the specific is). At 10:1 / 1:10 (like a wall that is washed with light from top to bottom by a non-visible source) a person cannot see the difference in lumens on the wall. Seems odd that the distinction between 10 and 100 lumens is not clearly notable, but it isn't.

Lamps also have a color rendition index (CRI) that works with the lamp temperature to make seeing easy and "right". A lot of fluorescent's have miserable CRI (think parking lot lights where everyone's ride is geeny-yellow). Usually the cheap lamps have poor CRI. There are fluorescent lamps at 85 CRI and higher (up to 92 -95). 85 is OK... less than 82 isn't really. Halogen, Xenon, incandescent all have CRI of 100.

I'm guessing all your luminaires have electronic ballasts. They will have a sound rating on the ballast label. Don't mess with anything but "A" or "Better than 'A' " A person can spend a lot on ballasts but very good ones (all aspects of their engineering) are not really expensive. I know, money is money... still... see if there is an electrical distributor near by... one that allows folks to walk in a door an do retail... they will have access to good, serviceable stuff for cheaper. And, then, there is our beloved Internet, where, push comes to shove, a person can buy anything they can think of... if you know what it is you want (need...)... =]

LED's are not all they are cracked up to be. Yup, more types/versatility now. Yup, cheaper now. Yup, better K's and CRI's now. Yup, brighter now. Push comes to shove, they don't work well in a lot of their recommended apps., and that doesn't have a thing to do with dollars per lumen.

If you want more, I think I've got it... and you'd be welcome to it, Nick.

Mike
 
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I installed 4000k flat LED panels in my entire workshop when I moved in almost a year ago. Each one is 60cm square. They are fantastic, no eye strain perfect color perception, could not be happier. Be sure the CRI is at least 80 and 90 is better. mine are 80 and that is fine. Be wary of real cheap stuff. Also the stuff from IKEA is very iffy. I bought mine directly from the company in China who make them and could not have been more pleased. If possible try before you buy too many pieces and be sure they are properly installed by an electrician.
 
I'm in the commercial lighting business by day so this is what I do all day. I do a lot of LED projects these days but still do quite a bit of fluorescent projects although it's move towards mostly LED with the way costs are coming down. I work for a energy services company so when I think of lighting i think of how to design it so that a) it meets certain light level requirements and b) it's as energy efficient as possible in order to generate the quickest ROI c)it's not going to be a maintenance nightmare down the road for someone. So forgive me if I talk about energy when I talk lighting because that's my life;).

The buzzing lights referenced above are the old magnetic ballasts used for T12 and HID lighting. You shouldn't have that problem even with cheap T8 or T5 electronic ballasts.

T8 lighting in general is all about the lamp and ballast combo so you configure the fixtures with to get just the light output you want. There are a ton of different lamps with different wattages, efficiencies, light output, life ratings etc. Likewise there are different power factors available for each ballast ranging from .65 to about 1.15. Power factor is basically a multiplier you would use to figure the actual light output and energy use of a lamp/fixture when used with that ballast.

For a typical 32W lamp it may have 3000 lumens of light output. So the same 4' 2 lamp T8 fixture could be configured with these light outputs:
.65 Ballast Factor= 32W x 2 x .65= 41.6W of energy use. 3000 x 2 x .65= 3900 lumens of total light output
1.15 BF= 32 x 2 x 1.15= 73.6W. 3000 x 2 x 1.15= 6900 lumens
So with the same fixtures and the same lamps you can get almost twice as much light output just by changing the ballast and you can choose a ballast with a power factor of .77, .85, or 1.0 to get some other output in between those.

4' T8 lamps are typically 25, 28 or 32W. 25 and 28W lamps are usually considered "energy saver" lamps but that is a misnomer because they're no more efficient than the 32 W lamps. They just put out less light so they're saving energy simply by making it darker. At each wattage a manufacturer may also have various levels of light output so there actually are "HO" T8 lamps compared to standard T8s although I don't know of anyone who actually calls them "HO". That's usually reserved for certain T12 or T5 lamps. For example this is just one lamp manufacturer but it's basically the same for GE, Phillips, Sylvania etc.

Eiko 32W lamps:
High lumen series(this would be their HO lamps)- 32W and 3100 initial lumens http://www.eiko.com/Products.aspx?CatID=680&ProductIndex=F32t8/830k/hl
Long life series- 32W and 2950 initial lumens but a lifetime rating of up to 70000 hours http://www.eiko.com/Products.aspx?CatID=734&ProductIndex=F32T8/850K/XL
Standard series- 32W 2950 lumens but only a 24000 hour life http://www.eiko.com/Products.aspx?CatID=681&ProductIndex=F32T8/850K
Energy Saver series- no 32W lamp available. 28W is highest with 2625 lumens. You can see that even though they're "energy savers" it's a scam because they're not even the most energy efficient lamps they offer. To me "energy saver" would be the most efficient lamps not one of the least efficient but oh well. They just put out less light. In my case I'm typically designing to meet specific light levels in a facility so it does me no good to use these "every saver" lamps when it just means I'm going to have to use more of them and create a lighting system that will cost more to operate in the long run. the energy costs of lighting far outweigh the initial costs if they're operating for any significant amount of time.


So basically a 4 lamp T8 which puts out 10000 lumens of light like the Home Depot fixture linked is probably 4x 32W standard efficiency lamps with a ballast that has a .85 power factor which is what is typically called a "normal power ballast". That gets you about 10030 lumens with 108W of power.

The "HO" fixture is probably the same exact thing with a 1.0 power ballast which would come out to about 11800-12000 lumens for standard lamps. And for the record there is very little cost difference between a .85 and a 1.0 power factor ballast. By labeling the fixture an "HO" fixture Home Depot is charging you a lot more for more light when in fact the cost of the components in the fixture is pretty much the same.

If you really wanted to get the most out of the fixture you could find one with a 1.15 power factor ballast and high lumen output lamps and get almost 15000 lumens from the same fixture. However, you'd probably be better off just getting the standard fixture with some type of reflector to direct more of the light down towards the work area than trying to blast as much light out of that fixture as possible.
 
Thank you phoritz.
That is a clear and simpl explanation of ballast power factor. When replacing a ballast, I just always got the highest rated one on the shelf and figured it had to do with efficiency. I honestly didn't know it added extra light. I try to earn something new every day. Today I learned something before 7:30AM......that is a good start to the day. I will memorize the formula.
 
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