Hollow Handle Survival Knife Durability

[Sam Wilson]

The other evening I was in the shop and decided to manhandle this knife just for kicks and curiosity, and to illustrate why I'm not concerned with well made HH knives exploding into multiple pieces while being used as knives.

This wasn't very scientific, but I believe it gets the point across, and is consistent with my experiences over the years. This particular knife is several years old, and has endured abuses that are too explicit for the internet. I believe I drew the spine back somewhere along the way, but that is essentially unimportant as this was to primarily test the strength of the mechanical joint.

On my knives for customers, they are mechanically joined, and the epoxy is added to seal the handle and add some strength. This knife has no epoxy, just the mechanical joint.

So without further ado, here are the pics, and comments/thoughts/questions are welcome.

Sam

 

[not2sharp]

The blade has a slight bend in it. Perhaps you can sharpen that out.

It reminds me of an old ad that Cold steel ran back in the 80s. They had destroyed a Buck 184 Buckmaster, by repeatedly locking the blade in a vice and applying force to the handle using a 6’ pipe. Sure enough they had a picture that showed the blade broken into About 6 pieces; but the handle tang joint was still intact. It is no wonder why they only ran that ad once or twice in Blade Magazine. It was the best advertisement ever done for that Buck knife.

n2s

 

[Danke42]

That's for cutting corners.

 

[Twindog]

Thanks for that photo. I know you're showing how strong the HH joint is, but I'm also curious about the steel alloy, the hardness and how far (degrees) you had to bend it to exceed its yield strength.

You must have used a lot of leverage to bend a blade at that point in its thickness.

Nice work.

I did have a Buck 184 back in the day. The problem wasn't the strength of the connection; the problem was the heavy geometry. I also tied the knife to a rope to test out the usefulness of the grappling hooks. Only did that once. Potential problems were pretty obvious from using the grappling feature, especially with that big blade, the hooks and that much metal coming back at me fast. Sort of like throwing a boomerang for the first time, and for a second or two, you're happy to see it coming back. Fast.

Still, it was a lot of fun.

 

[Sid Post]

The CRK One Piece knives made from A2 were certainly strong enough for military use. In fact, I gave one to my friend before he deployed to Croatia for a NATO deployment.

If I ever needed a hollow handle knife, the CRK One Piece is the one I would want on my belt or in my pack. Those are seriously good knives for a hollow handle knife. I should note however, that I really don't understand the need for the hollow handle though in most situations. Sure i can "Walter Mitty" a scenario with stuff in the handle to save the day but, how realistic is that and even more remote is the possibility of finding myself in such a situation with the right items in the handle when I need them.

 

[justjed]

Nice job! The Boker Apparo is another good one, as far as being resistant to breakage at the handle/tang junction.

I don't think the Muckblaster, sorry, BUCKMASTER, grappling feature was designed for climbing, as much as for having a couple of steel anchors that could be used for holding stuff if wedged into rocks or hammered into a tree. Not really sure just how useful they were in the field....

 

[not2sharp]

.....
I did have a Buck 184 back in the day. The problem wasn't the strength of the connection; the problem was the heavy geometry. I also tied the knife to a rope to test out the usefulness of the grappling hooks. Only did that once. Potential problems were pretty obvious from using the grappling feature, especially with that big blade, the hooks and that much metal coming back at me fast. Sort of like throwing a boomerang for the first time, and for a second or two, you're happy to see it coming back. Fast.

Still, it was a lot of fun.

The anchors where for use as a personal anchor point while in the water. As in snagging it onto a reef to keep you in place while you wait on the rest of the SEAL team to get into position.

n2s

 

[Twindog]

The anchors where for use as a personal anchor point while in the water. As in snagging it onto a reef to keep you in place while you wait on the rest of the SEAL team to get into position.

n2s

Guess that makes me Not2Smart. LOL

It looks like you and Justjed are right:

Regarding the grappling hooks, these are described it the patent which CAN BE SEEN HERE. In brief, the patent discusses the attachment of the grapples to the quillon with sufficient strength to support a load of 600 pounds and reference is made to a casting line. With this said, it is generally accepted that using the knife as a grappling hook, which implies the act of tying a rope to the pommel and throwing the knife, could be very hazardous! In fact, the last of the BUCKMASTER knives came with small flyers saying that using the knife as a grappling hook would void the warranty. A better use of these hooks are as anchor pins where knife can be wedged in some rocks or the crotch of a tree and used with a securing line off the lanyard loop attached to the hollow handle cap/pommel.​

https://buck-184.com

 

[Sam Wilson]

The blade has a slight bend in it. Perhaps you can sharpen that out.

It reminds me of an old ad that Cold steel ran back in the 80s. They had destroyed a Buck 184 Buckmaster, by repeatedly locking the blade in a vice and applying force to the handle using a 6’ pipe. Sure enough they had a picture that showed the blade broken into About 6 pieces; but the handle tang joint was still intact. It is no wonder why they only ran that ad once or twice in Blade Magazine. It was the best advertisement ever done for that Buck knife.

n2s

Thank you!

Thanks for that photo. I know you're showing how strong the HH joint is, but I'm also curious about the steel alloy, the hardness and how far (degrees) you had to bend it to exceed its yield strength.

You must have used a lot of leverage to bend a blade at that point in its thickness.

Nice work.

Thank you! I don't recall which alloy, I've had it in the shop for about 5 years, probably carbon steel that I drew the spine back on, if I had to guess. And yes, I had to put a bit of effort into it, lol.

 

[Sam Wilson]

That's the point of this, and many other, tests. It doesn't really matter if it's a one piece knife or a well constructed multi-piece HH knife, the blade will fail well before the joint, when done properly.

The idea of the items in the handle is not what you're talking about, essentially scenarios from movies/entertainment. The concept is a last ditch kit of supplies that will be useful for whatever environment you have prepared for. It's a redundancy, inside a waterproof/crush proof capsule.

Good points, I appreciate your post.

Sam

The CRK One Piece knives made from A2 were certainly strong enough for military use. In fact, I gave one to my friend before he deployed to Croatia for a NATO deployment.

If I ever needed a hollow handle knife, the CRK One Piece is the one I would want on my belt or in my pack. Those are seriously good knives for a hollow handle knife. I should note however, that I really don't understand the need for the hollow handle though in most situations. Sure i can "Walter Mitty" a scenario with stuff in the handle to save the day but, how realistic is that and even more remote is the possibility of finding myself in such a situation with the right items in the handle when I need them.

 

[GIRLYmann]

On my knives for customers, they are mechanically joined, and the epoxy is added to seal the handle and add some strength. ., here are the pics, and comments/thoughts/questions are welcome.

thanks for sharing!
i once saw some cheap hollow
handle sawback
with its.internally fasten nut rusted out.
there obviously must have been gaps
betwwen the tang and handle.
so much for a air/water tight storage compartment
awesome times back in the day steel wear, those 420J survival knives ;-)
oh and the infamous buckmaster destructive test...
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...s-the-real-story.1234238/page-2#post-14131623

 

[DangerZone98]

Good post, man. Well, you get what you pay for I suppose? I appreciate you showing us the limits of an HH knife in the name of science lol. I can acknowledge its philosophy of use. In case I have to ditch all my gear in a SHTF scenario but still miraculously have my knife, at least I still have all the doodads in the handle. Better than nothing I guess.

However, the user really should familiarize himself with the HH’s contents, and maybe even add or subtract stuff here and there. As Clint Smith said, “It’s difficult to pick up new skills in the middle of a fight.”

This knife isn’t for me though. If I wanted a tough inexpensive blade, I’d roll with the SRK or Recon Tanto.

 

[Sam Wilson]

Good post, man. Well, you get what you pay for I suppose? I appreciate you showing us the limits of an HH knife in the name of science lol. I can acknowledge its philosophy of use. In case I have to ditch all my gear in a SHTF scenario but still miraculously have my knife, at least I still have all the doodads in the handle. Better than nothing I guess.

However, the user really should familiarize himself with the HH’s contents, and maybe even add or subtract stuff here and there. As Clint Smith said, “It’s difficult to pick up new skills in the middle of a fight.”

This knife isn’t for me though. If I wanted a tough inexpensive blade, I’d roll with the SRK or Recon Tanto.

Good points, and I pretty much agree. The HH knives are often misunderstood, and in my opinion serve a valuable purpose, when utilized properly. Part of that is understanding what they're for, and also how to prepare the knife to match your surroundings and skills.

I have always said they are not for everyone, but some folks like them a lot. If the SRK or Recon Tanto is what you're after, these are definitely out of reach. The knife above is an unfinished version of one of my S.A.F.E. System knives (pictured below), and wouldn't be in that budget. But those are definitely good knives, and thank you for your post.

Sam

 

[Sam Wilson]

G GIRLYmann Good find. Probably not Bagwell's finest hour, lol. The ol' Buckmaster was a beast.

Sam

thanks for sharing!
i once saw some cheap hollow
handle sawback
with its.internally fasten nut rusted out.
there obviously must have been gaps
betwwen the tang and handle.
so much for a air/water tight storage compartment
awesome times back in the day steel wear, those 420J survival knives ;-)
oh and the infamous buckmaster destructive test...
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...s-the-real-story.1234238/page-2#post-14131623

 

[22-rimfire]

I'd have to say this is interesting as I have always avoided hollow handled knives for possible strength reasons. I have seen too many welds break to not think it could happen with a knife. But used as a regular knife, I think your pictures are revealing.

 

[evilgreg]

I see hollow handled survival knives as a solution looking for a problem, mostly. I'm sure they're a viable product to sell, though. Jam some fish hooks, line, a fire steel, etc. into one of those as a fully prepared kit and I imagine they'd sell like hot cakes to the right sort of well-heeled mall ninjas survival-minded folks. To my way of thinking I'd rather have a small go bag full of goodies (including a small knife) than a big knife with a much smaller bag of goodies concealed within it.

 

[Sam Wilson]

For this application, I too am not a fan of welding. A lot of factors come into play when dealing with welding heat treatable steel, and those factors are why I employ a mechanical connection. Thank you for feedback.


Sam

I'd have to say this is interesting as I have always avoided hollow handled knives for possible strength reasons. I have seen too many welds break to not think it could happen with a knife. But used as a regular knife, I think your pictures are revealing.

 

[22-rimfire]

Does welding a steel onto another metal not make it a weak point?

What is a mechanical connection? I don't understand.

 

[Sam Wilson]

I started the thread to discuss the strength of the build/concept, but this is one of the inevitable directions things go sometimes. You're missing the point of the knife/system, they're a small redundancy kit that is light and self-contained enough to be one unit, and carried in addition to your primary supplies, not instead of it. So you can still have your go bag. And HH knives aren't for everyone, that's the beauty of the massive knife market we have right now.

Sam

I see hollow handled survival knives as a solution looking for a problem, mostly. I'm sure they're a viable product to sell, though. Jam some fish hooks, line, a fire steel, etc. into one of those as a fully prepared kit and I imagine they'd sell like hot cakes to the right sort of well-heeled mall ninjas survival-minded folks. To my way of thinking I'd rather have a small go bag full of goodies (including a small knife) than a big knife with a much smaller bag of goodies concealed within it.

 

[Sam Wilson]

Does welding a steel onto another metal not make it a weak point?

What is a mechanical connection? I don't understand.

My point is I agree with you. When you weld heat treatable steel (knife steel) it causes negative effects to the structure of the steel that must be dealt with. This effect can be magnified when the welding is done right at the juncture of the blade/guard, where most of the stresses are going to be focused during actual use of the knife. That is primarily why I don't weld them.

A mechanical connection would be using various methods such as pins, bolts, threading, etc to hold the blade in place, essentially constructing it as a regular hidden tang, only with a smaller tang. Good questions!

Sam