How’s the Magnacut compare to 3V? And also apples.


We have continued to tweak the protocol and have it dialed in very well. I believe we have the best heat treat in the industry. This is my Magna cut at HRC 62.5. Is it as tough and durable as Delta 3V? Of course not. But it tolerates abuse and rough use, up to a certain point, and holds an edge very well.

The Delta protocol 3V was so named because the protocol deviated from the industry standard by enough that it really needed a new name. Magnacut started out as a low temperature tweak from the manufacturer. My protocol is different and optimized and measurably better, but the difference in approach to heat treat is not enough to justify a new name.
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Is there a thread comparing the 2. Does one excel over the other in any certain aspect. I’ve got a lot of Nathan’s 3V but no Magnacut.

Just curious from Nathan the Machinist Nathan the Machinist and users perspectives of one over the other.

Or if this has been explained numerous times, maybe a link or video.

Much appreciated!!!
I've used both in a DEK1 at work (although the magnacut one is a thin CPK Mark hollow grind)

They both are fantastic and I would guess the magnacut would win in corrosion resistance

I did chip my magnacut DEK (very very very tiny chip) , but I was being stupid making a fast cut and smacking a metal stand with it (also this knife is beautifully thin with Mark's grind)

I've done this same stupid act with my D3V DEK1 multiple times with 0 damage (but it is also factory thickness)

My thoughts is if you need something really really really corrosive resistant magnacut will win, but D3V wins in most other categories

I'm still trying to figure who wins in fine edge retention.... but I need to actually pay attention to that lol

But I will say I'll happily pick up some more CPK magnacut!
 
I've used both in a DEK1 at work (although the magnacut one is a thin CPK Mark hollow grind)

They both are fantastic and I would guess the magnacut would win in corrosion resistance

I did chip my magnacut DEK (very very very tiny chip) , but I was being stupid making a fast cut and smacking a metal stand with it (also this knife is beautifully thin with Mark's grind)

I've done this same stupid act with my D3V DEK1 multiple times with 0 damage (but it is also factory thickness)

My thoughts is if you need something really really really corrosive resistant magnacut will win, but D3V wins in most other categories

I'm still trying to figure who wins in fine edge retention.... but I need to actually pay attention to that lol

But I will say I'll happily pick up some more CPK magnacut!
This is my impression too. MC is decently tough and extremely stain resistant while D3V is extremely tough and decently stain resistant.
 
I can't provide any data points here but I have been so pleased and content with D3V that I have had zero motivation to try Magnacut. Anything that Nathan and crew set out to do, it's pure excellence so I imagine if Magnacut is your jam, then you're going to get superlative examples from CPK.
 
Since I only have the 3V, I guess I’m looking more on thoughts on edge retention.

Corrosion resistance isn’t too high on my priority list, but edge retention, I’m sure also the medium primarily cut could also play a part, but let’s just say Delta 3V is a 10 on edge retention, where would Magnacut fall?
 
Since I only have the 3V, I guess I’m looking more on thoughts on edge retention.

Corrosion resistance isn’t too high on my priority list, but edge retention, I’m sure also the medium primarily cut could also play a part, but let’s just say Delta 3V is a 10 on edge retention, where would Magnacut fall?
Are you talking abrasive wear resistance only or edge retention in general which accounts for all forms of edge wear and damage?

3V has only slightly less abrasive wear resistance than MC per Larrin's charts (4.5 vs 5.0 on a scale of 1 to 10) and I don't think the HT tweaks/changes affect this much as the underlying chemistry is the same. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

However, if we're talking edge retention in the general sense which accounts for all forms of wear and damage, I think D3V will be better because it won't roll, dent, or chip as easily as MC will in the roughest of uses.

ETA : Nathan's MC is run about 2 points harder though, so perhaps it'll have better fine edge stability?

Speaking out of pure speculation and not actual experience, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a difference between the two in your everyday average use case though.
 
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Help me out, abrasive wear resistance vs edge retention. Seems to me, they would cover the same ground or mostly. Unless this is a specific test on 2 different mediums.

I doubt on 95% of my cutting I’d notice much of a difference. I also wonder how Nathan’s tweaks change Larins results.
 
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They're similar and overlapping, yes, but there's nuance to be had there too.

I'm by no means an expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but abrasive wear resistance refers to wear induced by abrasive means only, i.e. cutting carpet, cardboard, items with silica, sand or other abrasives in them, etc.

This is often tested in the lab with CATRA testing though there are other tests as well.

In this test a knife cuts through a stack of silica impregnated strips of paper or card stock under a given load using slicing cuts. The steel is then given a rating based on how many pieces it cuts before it dulls sufficiently and can no longer cut under that given load. A higher rating (more cuts) means it has more abrasive wear resistance, lower and less abrasive wear resistance.

Steels with more hard carbides in them like S110V, 10V, Maxamet, etc will excel at this test as they can resist more wear than simpler steels like 52100, 1095, etc since they have a high alloying content of hard carbides in them. The simpler steels often have very little in the way of these alloying elements and carbides and so would dull much faster when cutting abrasive materials like rope and cardboard.

This test is limited in scope though since it only tests abrasive wear resistance. It doesn't test things like toughness, impact resistance, etc.

Here's the trade-off : while these highly alloyed steels have high abrasive wear resistance (from their carbide content), they don't often have high toughness and can dull by different means such as impacts to or side loading of the edge which could chip or roll the edge.

In real life, dulling happens through multiple modes, it's almost never purely abrasive in nature if it's EDC usage. So yes, your knife will encounter abrasion which can dull it but it can also be dulled by small or large impacts chipping it or from side loading the edge in cuts that aren't perfectly in line edge-to-spine which may lead to either chips or rolls.

For most of us, it's better to have a well rounded steel than one that specializes having high marks in only one particular area.

This is why steels like MC, D3V, S35VN, Cruwear, 4V/V4E are highly praised. They're not the best in any one area but they consistently have better than average ratings in most areas we care about like stainlessness, edge retention (resistance to all forms of dulling), and toughness. (Cruwear and 4V/V4E don't have great stainlessness, they're a lot better than say 52100 or 1095, but in the other 2 categories they're pretty darn good)

Your second to last sentence is spot on, we're not likely to notice a big difference in most uses, only in the more extreme use cases would certain attributes better show themselves.

Larrin's charts mostly just show the big 3 categories that are often talked about : abrasive wear resistance, toughness, and corrosion resistance or stainlessness.

There's other areas that we also care about which his charts don't really cover such as fine edge stability, strength, etc. Those are too specific for his chart's purposes though.

Nathan's tweaks or anyone's HT protocol in general has an effect on the steel which those charts won't always reflect. For instance, a harder blade typically has higher strength meaning the edge is more resistant to rolling than a softer blade (think glass or ceramic vs play-doh). Less rolling and deforming means higher edge retention but it doesn't mean it has higher abrasive wear resistance. See the difference?

Another instance is that a maker may HT to maximize carbide precipitation which would lead to higher abrasive wear resistance but toughness would likely be traded for such a goal.

As I understand it, Nathan's goal with his D3V protocol was to gain strength and edge stability because regular heat treated 3V doesn't have the greatest edge stability. It can roll easier than his delta protocol provides. I believe he was also gunning for increased toughness but can't recall if he's said that specifically or not so don't quote me on that. I think he's said the additional stainless it gained was a happy byproduct and not necessarily a goal of his tweaks.

In short though, his or anyone's heat treat protocols will effect those chart values to a degree, but some of it is baked in to the steel formulation so you won't ever be able turn something like 1095 into Maxamet. Much of it is determined by the steel's chemistry.

I like to think of it this way : Nathan has unlocked a lot of the steel's potential that others haven't yet been able to tap into. He can't exceed the fundamental boundaries of what the steel is capable of, but he's found the limits are higher than what we previously imagined.

I hope that is at least somewhat helpful and answers your question and I didn't ramble on explaining things you weren't asking.
 
There's other areas that we also care about which his charts don't really cover such as fine edge stability, strength, etc. Those are too specific for his chart's purposes though.
Edge stability is essentially a combination of toughness and hardness. So it's not hard to see in Larrin's data:

high-alloy-toughness-3-7-2024.png

Z-tuff and CPM-1V have high hardness and toughness, and testing has indicated they have excellent edge stability for chopping wood.
 
I prefer D3V. The extra durability and ease of sharpening makes it more desirable than magnacut in my opinion.

I had a DEK1 in each steel and I can honestly say that the magnacut had slightly more edge retention, but it was barely noticeable in daily use. What really stood out to me was the damage that the magnacut suffered during hard tasks when compared to D3V.

For example, I was building a gravel pad for my shed. I was laying weed cloth, which was impregnated with sand and had small rocks here and there. I used both DEK1s to cut it and the D3V had significantly less edge damage. Both were equally in need of a good sharpening session afterwards, which was to be expected. However, the magnacut edge had far more edge deformations and, unlike the d3v, some very small minor chips.

I personally don't like sharpening magnacut because of the way the burr forms. For me, these reasons make 3v win in a comparison quite easily.
 
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