How do you test your knives?

[nmbarta]

I'm sure this has been covered quite a bit, but I was curious if there is a somewhat excepted process for testing the quality of a blade.
I know about the js test, but my understanding is that the test is designed to tell what a smith is capable of, not necessarily what would make a quaility blade.
This is the fifth knife I've made, and the first of this size. It was my attempt at a camp kife, but I forged it too close to the final size, so there are several flaws in it. It seemed like a good opportunity to test my HT on 1084.
Here's what I did after I forged the general shape and roughed in the grind.
1. I HT in my garage with the lights off so I can be as cosistent as possible.
2. I brought it a couple shades past magnetic for 5 mins then air cooled.
4. Just past magnetic for 5 mins then air cooled.
5. Just under magnetic for 5 mins then air cooled.
6. One shade past magnetice and quenched in 125 degree canola oil.
7. Placed it in pre heated oven (verified at 400 degrees) between two fire bricks. They turned a cosistent straw color, but slightly darker than straw.
The test I did consisted of the following.
1. 30 degree edge shaving sharp. Rolled it on brass rod both directions. No chipping.
2. 250 hits into an old fir 8x8. (cut about 4" into it)
3. slice a 1/2" nylon rope 100 times.
4. chop a 2x6 in half.
5. Throw it through 1/2 plywood a couple dozen time. (I'm not good at that, most ended up bouncing around in the gravel)
6. chop 1/8" brass rod 25 times.
7. I put it in the vise mid blade and applied 100 lbs of sideway force to the top of the handle. It does bend a bit, but springs right back.
9. I took an extra piece off of the same bar a put through the same process at the same time so I could bend test it without ruining my knife. It cracked slightly at about 50 degrees, and was broke in half at 90 degrees. I put it in a vise and bent it by hitting it with a hammer, it might have done better if I had a piece of pipe to bend it with.
It is still pretty sharp, not jumping hair of my arm the way it was, but will still slice paper just fine, and still cuts right through the nylon rope. I did my best to keep all the chopping and cutting to the middle 3" of the blade and tested the sharpness there.
Aside from some slight dings from the gravel, there is no real damage to the edge.
Does this seem like a good torture test, or was I too easy on it?
Any input would be appreciated.
I'm pretty happy with the results, but don't really know if I should be.
Thanks.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

"How do you test your knives"
I usually give them an essay question on HT, then an oral quiz on blade goemetry and knife history.
Most have no problem with the HT data and math, but you would be surprised how many knives have no idea about their history.

You can do all sorts of bend/flex/break, etc. tests. The ones that will count are real use tests. Cut what it is made to cut in the manner it is designed to be used.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

This!^^^ I mostly make Culinary knives, a few hunters & test them accordingly, by myself, Pro Chefs and Hunters .———————————————————-. in all of my years, I’ve never needed to cut a Free hanging 1” piece of rope or needed to chop by through a 2 x 4”...............Will my knife/knives, slice Tomatoes? Chop Shallots, Carve a Roast? Process a deer? That’s what matters !!

 

[DanF]

Every time I see, or hear about some knife torture test I just shake my head.
Do people also do some kind of random 'see how much it can take', tests to all the tools they buy?
Getting ready for your JS or MS test, that's fine, but other than that, it's a fricking knife, treat it with respect, take care of it and it'll take care of the task it was designed for.
This, more than anything else is why I hate FiF.
If you're new to knifemaking, I guess I can see '''pushing it to the limit', to make sure your process is good to go. Other than that, like they said ^^^.

 

[Lieblad]

If I want to torture test a knife, use one of my Moras or Hults. They often are used along with a hammer to spine as chisels cutting into whatever I need to.
My good knives simply get a Rockwell here & there to verify my HT, then put to use as knives are supposed to.

 

[Larrin]

Taste test.

 

[AVigil]

I slice with slicers, I chop with choppers, I stab with stabbers.

I do not chop with slicers nor with stabbers.

To be honest my matchetes I got from Guatemala have proven over decades of use, by tens of thousands of campo workers, to be the superior hand cutting tool for actually clearing brush, branches and all kinds of field work.

I can put the tip on the ground and bend it 90 degrees and have it spring back perfectly straight. I think I paid $6 for it in the 80's.

On a side note they work great at cutting off arms as well, many men with only one arm down there due to drunken matchette fights.

 

[nmbarta]

DanF
Sorry to make you shake your head again, I didn't know that this was a frowned upon thing to do in the custom knife world.

I'm not looking to use a knife as a tire iron or an ax, I'm just looking for a way to tell if what I'm doing during my HT process is working and I don't have access to fancy tools.
I already messed up the knife so, I figured I'd find out if it's any good. I thought maybe there was some universal test that people used to see if what they are doing works. I didn't know there wasn't, I also didn't know that testing knives is such a ridiculous thing to do.
Testing beyond expectations is pretty common in my field. If I'm building a roof system on a house that needs a snow load of 50 psf, I don't build the roof to fail at 51 psf. In fact, they probably wouldn't fail until three times that or more.
I'd like my knives to be really good knives. I can buy a knife for 20 bucks that will skin deer, chop onions, cut meat, fillet fish, and carve marshmallow sticks. What's the point of a custom knife if it's not expected to be better than a 20 dollar wallmart special?
I'm surprised to hear talk like this in a custom knife forum.
I can tell you exactly why the custom homes and furniture I build are better than 90% of the stuff that's out there. It's not just talk and looks, they are truly better, more efficient, safer, cleaner, quieter, healthier homes to live in than anything else you can buy.
There is no way I'd tell a potential customer that, they are paying a premium for an average house. I build the best homes money can buy and I can prove it. If I were to buy a custom hunting knife for say 400.00 bucks, I would like to think that the smith knows what he's doing and has fully tested his process before selling it to me. Without testing there is no knowing, that's exactly why millions of dollars worth of brand new cars are crashed every year. After all the theoretical computer testing, they crash them into a wall, roll them over, hit them in the side and all of that so they know how their product performs.
I'm new to all of this, I thought that bladeforums bladesmith Q&A would be a good place to ask a question like this. I obviously posted in the wrong forum.

 

[coldsteelburns]

Every time I see, or hear about some knife torture test I just shake my head.
Do people also do some kind of random 'see how much it can take', tests to all the tools they buy?
Getting ready for your JS or MS test, that's fine, but other than that, it's a fricking knife, treat it with respect, take care of it and it'll take care of the task it was designed for.
This, more than anything else is why I hate FiF.
If you're new to knifemaking, I guess I can see '''pushing it to the limit', to make sure your process is good to go. Other than that, like they said ^^^.

"...to make sure your process is good to go."

I agree with that part, and I see nothing wrong with guys testing their knives' edge retention, geometry, toughness and so on, ESPECIALLY when they are forging their blades and doing their own HT as well as just starting out, not to mention learning to heat treat with their forge.

Perhaps if they were doing these same tests with a culinary knife, a leather knife, a straight razor and so on then I could see that being a bit silly, but it can also be useful tool to test and dial in your heat treat and blade geometry for a particular style of knife, as long as there is some method to the madness and not just taking a 1/4" thick pry bar with an edge and saying, "hey look what my 'knife' can do without breaking" Also, the OP did mention it was a camp knife, which guys tend to like to chop and baton with.

One place I think ridiculous testing may be somewhat useful is when testing a "survival" type knife, as I do believe it could be reassuring to know that no matter how ridiculous the amount of abuse it takes it will still hold up and not break or chip severely, you know, just in case your life depended on it for some extreme situation.

Unfortunately, a lot of gimmicky knives over the years and testing meant merely for entertainment have given testing a bad rep. This is just my $.02 though


~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (It's been a few years since my last upload)

 

[DanF]

@mmbarta,
Nah, you didn't post in the wrong forum, I'm just on overload from ninja/Rambo/ zombie slayer/ post apocalypse survivalist/ tactical fighting specialists with another knife test.
As I mentioned, there are times it helps to test your mettle/metal.
Nice looking knife by the way, good luck with them.

 

[AVigil]

"I'm surprised to hear talk like this in a custom knife forum. "

No one is against testing as long as it is the appropriate test is given.

For example, testing a drop point skinner, fighter, dagger etc by hacking at a 2x4 would not be a test of the knifes desired quality.

 

[nmbarta]

Thanks.
I don't have this down yet, but do enjoy building knives.
I was hoping for some constructive criticism on my HT/test process.
I get that my testing is not very scientific, but I didn't do much to it that it might not have to do in the field.
I take my boat way up the river where nobody goes, I hike into the mountains where very few people go. Everything I have is potentially a survival tool, especially a knife. I've broke/bent/ruined plenty of cheap knives using them for things they weren't intended for. (mostly screw drivers and pry bars)
I like this design, I called it a "camp" knife because that is what it looks like I guess.
I'm going to build one for the truck, and one for the boat, who knows what they'll get used for.
I'd like to build a slightly smaller one for my pack and hopefully get good enough at this to give a few away as gifts.
What is "FiF" by the way?
Maybe I went about this wrong.
If you had a propane forge and a household electric oven, how would you HT 1084 for a camp/survival knife?
How would you "check" yourself to make sure you have a good blade?

 

[nmbarta]

AVigil

I just built a drop point skinner that I used the same process on.
What would be an appropriate/useful test for a 1084 skinner?
This is what I mean, I know that you can get different results depending on how you HT, so how do you make sure that you've achieved what your going for?
What would you do different to the dagger or skinner compared to the chopper?
Would you HT a fighter different than a skinner or a dagger?
Maybe I'm digging deeper than I need too, I have a tendency to need to know everything about everything that I do.
I've found myself pretty deep in more than one rabbit hole, my wife is already afraid she'll find me at the bottom of this one as well.

 

[samuraistuart]

My answer to this mirrors some of the sentiments already given. I understand the want/need to know everything at the start, I'm the same way. But honestly, the best answer to your question has been given. The way to go about testing the knives you are making is to simply use the knives as intended. Making a chef's knife? Use it in the kitchen and cut up different foods from cooked protein to cutting thru the most difficult fruits/veggies. Making a hunter? Use that knife in the field and gut/skin/quarter/process the game that knife was designed to handle. EDC? Use that baby on cardboard, zip ties, clean the fingernails, whittle, etc. That really is the best way to know your knives, their geometry, the handles, and the heat treatment are dialed in.

 

[HSC ///]

Back a couple years ago when I was starting out and was still collecting, I tried to quantify a cutting test for myself.
I purchased some well known makers knives and did some testing etc.
the first thing I was shocked by is how many knives were not sharp out of the box or as rec'd.

anyway you asked a broad question - how do you test your knives and so you get many answers, but then you also asked about comments on your heat treat process...

also I think there are other factors that contribute to the success/failure test such as yours, the grind, the thickness, the thickness behind the edge, the thickness behind the edge..

so here's mine depending on what I'm making.
1) if it's laminated steel which is the majority of what I make, I check the hardness by cutting some steel prior to the edge being too thin. after final grind I do a flex test to check the temper. If it's a homogenous steel, I used my Rockwell hardness tester, but still do the above mentioned things.

2) then I usually push cut 3/4" manila rope for an outdoor knife. I also found a downward slice (straight down, not across) in newspaper usually tells me it's sharp enough to push cut manila rope.

3) sometimes I will chop a small nail.

4) if its a kitchen knife, I cut stuff in the kitchen for what that knife is suited for

regards

 

[AVigil]

AVigil

I just built a drop point skinner that I used the same process on.
What would be an appropriate/useful test for a 1084 skinner?
This is what I mean, I know that you can get different results depending on how you HT, so how do you make sure that you've achieved what your going for?
What would you do different to the dagger or skinner compared to the chopper?
Would you HT a fighter different than a skinner or a dagger?
Maybe I'm digging deeper than I need too, I have a tendency to need to know everything about everything that I do.
I've found myself pretty deep in more than one rabbit hole, my wife is already afraid she'll find me at the bottom of this one as well.

Test is cutting for a skinner, not chopping. How many cuts did it make in a given test material?

The way you make sure what you are getting is with controlled heat treat, cryo , tempering achieving desired hardness, geometry.

Then you cut with a cutter. I would no more chop a 2x4 with a dropped Skinner then I would with with an Ulu or a straight razor.

People should spend more time to pack an axe and saw and not loosing them then batoning their skinners through branches

 

[nmbarta]

Thank you,
I was figured there was a standard for knives, how to test, and what to expect of a good blade.
I guess there just isn't. Now that I know that, I can just go about abusing my metal how I see fit I guess.
I love rifles, and there is a standard that is pretty much across the board, 1 moa is a pretty good shooting factory rifle with factory ammo.
I expect more from my full custom built rifles, and I get more from them. They will shoot 1/2 moa all day, and I get quite a few 1/4 moa groups from them as well. I know them well and what they are capable of, I load the ammo for them and know what they do together, because of this, I can hit targets much farther away than most. My rifle is actually better than most.
I just assumed that custom knives were a bit like that, obviously, truly, better than the store bought stuff.

I have a 100.00 full set of kitchen knives with steak knives that cuts food. If I were to "test" them with food, they'd pass the test just fine.

 

[Lieblad]

What's the point of a custom knife if it's not expected to be better than a 20 dollar wallmart special?

Its owning bragging rights... or fashion statement / art display of carrying it.
There is otherwise little ’good reason’ to own a custom knife, clothing, car, boat, furniture, etc.
The only thing justifies my 3-600$ pricetags is the 30-60$ of material and my labour.
My products are perfectly good high quality build & finish. But mostly used as costume accessory by folks who never use knives apart of whats banging around in their kitchen drawer.
Fwiw,
Google images ”samekniv” to see examples of my style product.

 

[kuraki]

I cut stuff

 

[AVigil]

I have a 100.00 full set of kitchen knives with steak knives that cuts food. If I were to "test" them with food, they'd pass the test just fine.

Yes they would and you would not test them by chopping a log. There is a reason we do not chop logs with steak knives and chef knives to test performance.

Custom knives are not "Super knives" and much of their value is attached to who the maker is and if they are popular, not because they work better then the knives of others.

One of the great things about current day knifemaking is the heat treating is reproducible and Rockwell testing is common. We can consistently reproduce geometry and designs.

A $20 walmart special can perform just as well as a custom knife if they got the steel, heat treatment and geometry correct.

Test blades for what they were designed for. There is no need to test a skinner by chopping a log then there is to test it if it could dig a grave.