How good is the heat treat on custom knives?

[timbo813]

When I started to get into knives and started reading on bladeforums I was surprised at the attitude toward custom knives. The general attitude seems to be that custom is always better than a production knife. I have never owned a custom so I can't dispute that. However, it never totally made sense to me.

The big advantage to a custom seems to be that you can pick exactly what you want in the shape, size, handle material, steel, etc. Also, they generally have more hand work and better fit and finish than most production knives.

However, heat treat is a big part of how a knife performs. Most people seem to have the attitude that the heat treat on a custom is always better than on a production knife. That doesn't make sense to me. Sure, many custom makers are absolute masters and produce great knives (including heat treat). But, not all customs are created equal. I can say I'm a custom knife maker and not know a thing about heat treating steel. Also, even if I learn how to do a great heat treat for one steel it doesn't automatically transfer if I try something else. Production knife companies have the advantage of scale. They are going to sell many more knives in a certain material so they can do more research. They will also tend to have more sophisticated heat treating equipment. Just in terms of heat treat, wouldn't 1095 from ESEE or Kabar be more likely to have a good heat treat than many of the newer custom makers?

Please understand I'm not trying to bash custom makers. I will probably own some in the future. It just seems like the general attitude toward customs isn't always realistic. Am I missing something?

 

[Mike45ACP]

I tend to agree. I work at a factory that produces timing chain for all the major car manufacturers and most of the minor ones. In our 17 acre plant we have around 30 furnaces. Everything from continuous retort oil quench to huge salt quench belt furnaces. We're talking furnaces that are 60 foot long and when you ad the washer and temper draw total 120 foot or more. Huge amount of engineering on a continual basis go into perfecting those parts. I find it hard to believe a lone knife maker would have the resources to match a large company.

Mike

 

[bodog]

You want a hamburger cooked at home by a professional chef who's devoted his professional life to finding the best beef, best buns, best mustard, best onions, best chili, best bacon, best cheese, and the best way to cook it all up or from McDonald's who found the best way to maximize profit?

The real answer is it depends on the person/company making the knives. McDonald's spends enough money to make as much money as possible. A professional chef spends enough money to make the best product. Just because someone makes a burger at home doesn't mean it'll taste good and just because McDonald's has the most money to spend on pumping out as many burgers as possible doesn't mean they taste good either

 

[Sid Post]

A well respected custom maker will always deliver a better knife IMHO. I have had factory Benchmades rust in my pocket, had a Benchmade Tanto that chipped, etc. Neither knife was abused.

I have used a Newt Livesay carbon steel knife for >15 years that is more rust and stain resistant than factory stainless steel knives. That knife also takes and keeps a very keen and very sharp edge and holds it much longer than comparable factory knives.

Then their is the issue of getting the knife that serves you best. How thick an edge do you want? What grind works best? .......

I have knives that to the causal observer appear to be identical but, have subtle grind differences to make them perform better for how I will use them. Once you understand blade geometry, you will wonder why you waited so long to get a knife that works so much better.

Factory knives have their place in the market place but, so do custom knives. And in my case, I have some $100~$150 custom knives that are easily twice or three times the apparently similar factory knife.

A Cold Steel SRK or Ka-Bar aren't bad knives, its just that there are so many better knives out there. YMMV

 

[Ankerson]

It will vary quite a bit.

Some do their own heat treating and have the right equipment to do it right and monitor what is actually going on with the blades during the process.

Others... Well.... They just don't....

Some send their blades off to places like Peters HT and that's fine.

 

[Charr]

It will vary quite a bit.

Some do their own heat treating and have the right equipment to do it right and monitor what is actually going on with the blades during the process.

Others... Well.... They just don't....

Some send their blades off to places like Peters HT.

This^

The big thing to me is that good custom makers are doing their heat treats in small batches, and they monitor their blades and actively make adjustments to improve their heat treat process and the blades they subsequently produce.

Production companies, on the other hand, tend to heat treat their blades in large batches, which creates more of a variability in the hardness and overall properties of their blades, which they very rarely actually test for each blade, leaving way more of a possibility for blades to come out with poor heat treat and lower performance then they should.

Some companies that do smaller batches of heat treat like Brous Blades, Hinderer, CRK, and some of the companies that use Bos Heat treats or Peters (like Buck for example) will have higher overall standards of consistency, but they will still likely vary more from blade to blade than a custom maker who does their own in-house heat treat.

Another thing to take into consideration is that custom makers KNOW that one heat treat process isn't going to work on all blade steels. They do their research, and they will make the adjustments as needed, in order to make sure their product is to a higher quality, or they will fail to sell their product, and they will lose customers from it.
Makers who use a variety of steels, like the boys over at Ferrum Forge, do extensive testing and research to get their heat treat right on steels BEFORE they start selling blades in them.
Other makers who don't have the facilities to do an in-house heat treat will likely use a service to have it done, like Peters as Ankerson mentioned. Those are still done in smaller batches, and will have a much more consistent end-result overall than something you would ever get from Benchmade or Spyderco, for example.


So, yes, you will generally get a better heat treat from a custom maker, largely because their livelihood depends on delivering a higher-end product, and doing so with the customer's wishes in mind as much as possible.
Sometimes you might find a maker who has a heat treat that isn't to snuff, but the main thing you need to remember is that if you ever have that issue, you know who to call to get it fixed, and that maker has to stand behind his/her product, or risk losing a valuable customer. Production companies don't generally have that issue. They will send you a new knife if you have a valid complaint, but most of the time the people who buy a Benchmade or a Spyderco won't really notice the differences unless they are really paying attention, or the issue is very severe.

 

[Ankerson]

This^

The big thing to me is that good custom makers are doing their heat treats in small batches, and they monitor their blades and actively make adjustments to improve their heat treat process and the blades they subsequently produce.

Production companies, on the other hand, tend to heat treat their blades in large batches, which creates more of a variability in the hardness and overall properties of their blades, which they very rarely actually test for each blade, leaving way more of a possibility for blades to come out with poor heat treat and lower performance then they should.

Some companies that do smaller batches of heat treat like Brous Blades, Hinderer, CRK, and some of the companies that use Bos Heat treats or Peters (like Buck for example) will have higher overall standards of consistency, but they will still likely vary more from blade to blade than a custom maker who does their own in-house heat treat.

Another thing to take into consideration is that custom makers KNOW that one heat treat process isn't going to work on all blade steels. They do their research, and they will make the adjustments as needed, in order to make sure their product is to a higher quality, or they will fail to sell their product, and they will lose customers from it.
Makers who use a variety of steels, like the boys over at Ferrum Forge, do extensive testing and research to get their heat treat right on steels BEFORE they start selling blades in them.
Other makers who don't have the facilities to do an in-house heat treat will likely use a service to have it done, like Peters as Ankerson mentioned. Those are still done in smaller batches, and will have a much more consistent end-result overall than something you would ever get from Benchmade or Spyderco, for example.


So, yes, you will generally get a better heat treat from a custom maker, largely because their livelihood depends on delivering a higher-end product, and doing so with the customer's wishes in mind as much as possible.
Sometimes you might find a maker who has a heat treat that isn't to snuff, but the main thing you need to remember is that if you ever have that issue, you know who to call to get it fixed, and that maker has to stand behind his/her product, or risk losing a valuable customer. Production companies don't generally have that issue. They will send you a new knife if you have a valid complaint, but most of the time the people who buy a Benchmade or a Spyderco won't really notice the differences unless they are really paying attention, or the issue is very severe.

The thing that bothers me are the ones who don't have the right equipment and try to do their own HT anyway, yes it's expensive but it is really needed (proper equipment).... If they don't have it then they need to send the blades off instead of trying to save a few bucks until they can afford the correct equipment instead of shortcutting etc. People have to be very careful whom they buy custom knives from as there are plenty of hacks out there. The good thing is that the knife making community is very small and for the most part self policing so hacks are ousted pretty quickly and their reps are ruined......

Without the proper equipment they are guessing really, even a broken watch is right twice a day.