How Hard Can 420HC Get?

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The Mighty Ginsu

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Does anyone here know...I mean really KNOW...how hard 420HC can be? I read that it tops out at 55 RC, but someone is trying to tell me it goes to 59.

I have two Gerber Gator II knives made from this stuff, and they're very soft. Worthless except as cheap beaters.
 
Harder than 55; I believe Buck, who does probably the best heat treat anywhere on 420HC, runs them around 59 or so.
 
The Mighty Ginsu said:
Does anyone here know...I mean really KNOW...how hard 420HC can be? I read that it tops out at 55 RC, but someone is trying to tell me it goes to 59.

I have two Gerber Gator II knives made from this stuff, and they're very soft. Worthless except as cheap beaters.
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Buck does the best 420hc you can get because it gets them their value to cost ratio they're known for across most of their line.

I personally wouldn't worry about how hard the steel can get because buck is the only company that seems to care about getting the most out of it.
 
The Mighty Ginsu said:
It sounds like Buck is actually making good knives from this stuff. I am surprised.
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You are surprised? They have been doing it for a long time; they are famous for their heat treatment, for which they use Paul Bos. Buy yourself a 110 and see what you think.

I had one years before I had any interest in steels; all I knew was that it was a good knife that held an edge.
 
The Mighty Ginsu said:
It sounds like Buck is actually making good knives from this stuff. I am surprised.
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It isn't very abrasion resistant, and it will still dull relatively quickly if used on rough materials at low edge-angles, but Buck's 420HC can take a good edge relatively easily and resist squashing better than a Gerber at similar geometry, so... *shrug* use what works for you! :thumbsup::)

bluntcut can get steel to crazy levels of performance, but it depends on what kind of performance you are seeking! Buck keeps theirs at 59 Rc and probably finds it sufficiently tough to avoid QC issues on their scale of mass-production, Gerber seems to go for something lower or just doesn't care to go higher. bluntcut mentions in his link taking 8Cr up to 63Rc, while I had a Kershaw Echo in 8Cr that was ostensibly at 59 Rc. Stainless Opinels are 12C27mod HT'd to ~58Rc - not all that different. The one I've used dulls like crazy compared to my Bucks but it also has a more acute geometry.
 
It sounds like you're saying 420HC Bucks are not that great after all, which would make sense, since it's cheap.

I don't like soft steel in knives I use outside the house. For example, I've used a Forschner (Victorinox) stainless filet knife to skin squirrels, and the hairs dull it so fast you have to sharpen it once per squirrel. It cuts cleanly at first, and then it dulls to the point where I have to use a sawing motion. That's no good. I've had knives I could sharpen once or twice a month.

My first good knife was a 440C Gerber made in the Eighties. I was startled by how well it held an edge. Since then, I've had no interest in soft pocket knives. Unfortunately, Gerber doesn't seem to be the company it once was.

I don't mind softer steel in kitchen knives, because I always have diamond hones handy, and because cutting vegetables and meat isn't very challenging to begin with. I tried super-hard Japanese knives, and they chipped easily and had to be babied. That's why I use Forschners, Mundials, and a carbon cleaver from the Wok Shop.
 
Look for the bos heat treatment from buck knives. It's the only good mass produced 420hc.
 
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The Mighty Ginsu said:
It sounds like you're saying 420HC Bucks are not that great after all, which would make sense, since it's cheap...
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Context matters, that is all. I like certain Buck models because of the design, the warranty, and the price. They mass-produce USA-made knives in 420HC, a "budget steel", but their reputation with that steel in mass-production is the best in the business :thumbsup: Their 420HC is "not that great" compared to a number of other steels well HT'd for mass-produced knives, but it is comparable or better than most "budget steels", with close comparisons in 12C27 and 8Cr that are commonly found at similar hardness. So at the price-point, with the addition of a long company history and a great warranty with more than a tad of US-patriotism thrown in, I am happy to call 420HC Bucks "great" in such context. :cool: Just don't get carried away with interpreting their level of "greatness". ;)

Furthermore, other Brands with 420HC knives, like Gerber or Kershaw, may offer models that you find more appealing than those from Buck, so that may have greater impact on what you decide to buy vs. how "great" Buck's 420HC is. YMMV
 
Oh you done did it now! No one's gonna be jumpin in that boat!

The Mighty Ginsu said:
It sounds like Buck is actually making good knives from this stuff. I am surprised.
Click to expand...
The Mighty Ginsu said:
It sounds like you're saying 420HC Bucks are not that great after all, which would make sense, since it's cheap.

I don't like soft steel in knives I use outside the house. For example, I've used a Forschner (Victorinox) stainless filet knife to skin squirrels, and the hairs dull it so fast you have to sharpen it once per squirrel. It cuts cleanly at first, and then it dulls to the point where I have to use a sawing motion. That's no good. I've had knives I could sharpen once or twice a month.

My first good knife was a 440C Gerber made in the Eighties. I was startled by how well it held an edge. Since then, I've had no interest in soft pocket knives. Unfortunately, Gerber doesn't seem to be the company it once was.

I don't mind softer steel in kitchen knives, because I always have diamond hones handy, and because cutting vegetables and meat isn't very challenging to begin with. I tried super-hard Japanese knives, and they chipped easily and had to be babied. That's why I use Forschners, Mundials, and a carbon cleaver from the Wok Shop.
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Buck's 420HC is a tough, highly stain resistant steel that will take a very fine edge, and is quite easy to sharpen. It's certainly good enough for millions of people, and even for a lot of us knife nerds, truth be told. I found 420HC to be a significant improvement over Buck's old 440C, which was about impossible to sharpen without diamond hones.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Buck's 420HC is a tough, highly stain resistant steel that will take a very fine edge, and is quite easy to sharpen. It's certainly good enough for millions of people, and even for a lot of us knife nerds, truth be told. I found 420HC to be a significant improvement over Buck's old 440C, which was about impossible to sharpen without diamond hones.
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I bet if that 440C had an Edge 2X bevel on it Alberta Ed you'd be singing a completely different tune.
 
Well Gerber is known for junk these days in the 80s they made quality today that make mass of garbage Joe Blow buys because Bear Grylls says its good which he says because they pay him to say it. Buck has been making great knives and continues to make great knives for an incredible value one of the best in the game at that price point. I also care to point out that skinning with a fillet knife probably not going to give you the best results as it isn't what that blade was designed for.
 
PirateSeulb said:
Well Gerber is known for junk these days in the 80s they made quality today that make mass of garbage Joe Blow buys because Bear Grylls says its good which he says because they pay him to say it. Buck has been making great knives and continues to make great knives for an incredible value one of the best in the game at that price point. I also care to point out that skinning with a fillet knife probably not going to give you the best results as it isn't what that blade was designed for.
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let knife probably not going to give you the best results as it isn't what that blade was designed for.[/QUOTE]

Buck Knives thinks cheap and overcharges for it.Back when they contracted Taiwan they were using AUS-4 or Krupp 4034...German and Japanese equivalents to 420HC.Most companies that contracted Taiwan at least used AUS-8...Buck wouldn't even shell out the money for that.4034 is used in Smith & Wesson knives that are made in Taiwan.Buck used a 420HC facsimile to keep the budget down and not use AUS-8 because it would create controversy against their use of 420HC in mass production.

On that note I get a lot less edge rolling from 7Cr17MoV than I do from 420HC.
 
The Mighty Ginsu said:
It sounds like Buck is actually making good knives from this stuff. I am surprised.
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Not exactly Ginsu.420HC is in class with another right under it called 420J2 which is used for liner locks,and handle materials...they're known for their tensile strength.Softness and very fine grain structure allows these steels to sharpen up easily and cut well so they do serve in the outdoor industry.But the caveat is it's a blade crafted from what's used for disposable scalpel and razor blades...it's 0.46% in carbon.Most of what you'll encounter in mass production stainless steels among affordable knives yields between 0.60-0.75% in carbon.

A little over 20 years ago a few other USA knife manufacturers started using 420HC in place of 440A for several reasons...

*Much cheaper than 440A.420HC was still rust resistant so people paying for the upgrade to stainless? that was the selling factor.Didn't matter if it underperformed the previous steel or not,the point was people were paying for stainless and they were getting that.

*It was fine blanking where 440A was not

*The beauty of 420HC was they could throw it in with a batch of 1095 Carbon Tool Steel and give them the same heat treatment mixed together and get them 57-59rc.A minimally alloyed stainless and non-alloyed steel were easy to harden and boosted production.440A required a separate heat treatment because it took finesse to harden as a higher alloyed steel.There is nothing particularly 'glorious' about Buck being able to harden their blades to 58rc(laughing)...that was a standard.

The bottom line is Buck uses a cheap steel.The widening of the bevel and narrowing of the edge angle called Edge 2X (Edge 2000 back then) gave more cutting surface and sharpening ease.A functional gimmick back then because it made people believe back in 1999 that Buck had a better heat treatment...nope...just improved edge results.Easy to achieve through re-profiling a blade.It was a useful gimmick back then because only a few manufacturers like Spyderco,CRKT, and a few others had such a great factory edge.Now it's an outdated gimmick because most knives come with a pretty good bevel and edge.All Buck has now is old marketing to sales pitch their 420HC and promoting it just because it's slapped on it a USA made brand.If it said 'China' on the blade a lot more people would be honest with you about it.
 
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