Recommendation? How many strokes on a whetstone?

B

Bo-dacious

Joined
Aug 13, 2016
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Hey guys, I was wondering something about the amount of strokes to use in whetstones and to what grit I should go to be able to shave hair.

I was told to do 30 strokes at the lowest grit, then triple it for every grit I increase. For example, 30, 90, 270, etc. But this equates to thousands of strokes if you go to 10k grit like I do. I see the guys on "forged in fire" sharpen a blade in stones razor sharp in what seems like minutes. How many strokes do I really need?

And what grit do I need to go to in order to have the knife shave leg hair?

Thanks for the help guys,

Bo
 
I don't think the grit matters a lot. Some of us were recently in a thread discussing coarse edges, people were using grits in the range from 60 to 320, and with that you can get an edge that will shave hair. Here's a post where I discussed what I tried.

On the number of strokes, I'm not a fan of stroke-counting approaches. It takes what it takes. What's more important than counting strokes is to just frequently inspect your edge as you work. Check it visually, use a sharpie to ensure you're hitting the bevels, see if the apex is reflecting light, test it by slicing computer or phonebook paper, do the thumbnail test, etc. Check the Sharpness Chart in the top of the maintenance forum sticky, it's a good guide to common tests for sharpness that you can use while you work. These are the things that tell you if you're making progress.

If you maintain your knives pretty well and have not allowed your edge to get too damaged, often you can clean it up in just a few minutes, sometimes even with just a few swipes per side. With an edge where you are doing some shaping and thinning, or resetting the bevel, and then re-apex, it can take me anywhere from 10 minutes to 45 minutes, depending on some variables: the state of the edge, what kind of steel it is, what abrasive I am using.
 
How many strokes? How ever many it takes. That will depend on a lot of factors, and you shouldn't worry about the exact number--just the effect those strokes produce. If I take two light strokes on one side and two hard strokes on the other, the results won't be the same, yeah? So just watch how the edge is being formed and try to keep it equal on both sides. :)
 
Okay so maybe a dumb question again but I'm learning, but if I'm not cutting paper at 1000 grit, am I doing something wrong? What should I do differently? Could it be my stones?

Bo
 
Oh, and is there a minimum grit that should make the edge not reflect light? Or is that another "depends" thing?

Thanks,

Bo
 
Hi,
Bo-dacious said:
And what grit do I need to go to in order to have the knife shave leg hair?
Click to expand...
Raise a burr with coarse 200-600 grit stone, preferably not gigantic burr, cut it off with 2-10 passes at higher angle. Thats it.
You should be able to shave after the first sharpening stone, whatever grit that happens to be.
Extra coarse like under 150 grit needs a bit more care/experience to get there.
200 grit and higher and everybody should be able to get there provided they try.
Even the burr itself should shave arm/leg hair, even a curled over burr, ouchy but shave.



Hi,
Bo-dacious said:
I was told to do 30 strokes at the lowest grit, then triple it for every grit I increase. For example, 30, 90, 270, etc. But this equates to thousands of strokes if you go to 10k grit like I do
Click to expand...

Thats like something mors kochanski would say, its not true.
But thousands of strokes ain't nothing but 10 minutes :)

It maybe takes 30 strokes on your coarsest grit if everything goes perfect,
but a regular sharpening even from a newbie shouldn't take more than 300 strokes on coarse grit (200-400).
If its taking more than 300 strokes youre fixing damage changing angles or both.


Yes, the more stones you use, the more strokes you'll use , but that should not be surprising.
You dont have to polish the entire bevel only the last 1-20 microns and that should be fast.

Here are numbers for a tight lots of stone "stones" progression for high polish with good angle control Sharpening Plane Blade on Granite Block
P80 (197 micron) however many strokes it takes, like 10
P120 (127 micron) 5-10 strokes completely erases the P80 scratch pattern
P180 (78 micron) 5-10 strokes
P240 (58.5 micron) 5-10 strokes
P360 (40.5 micron) 5-10 strokes
P500 (30.2 micron) 5-10 strokes
P800 (21.8 micron) 5-10 strokes
P1200 (15.3 micron) 5-10 strokes
P2000 (9.5 micron) 5-10 strokes, plus maybe 5-10 deburring

so thats 110 strokes total maybe.
This is with 3-4 stones and bigger/common grit jumps. Its more strokes but its not thousands. The bevels aren't fully mirror polished, but the apex is.
Re: Grit Progression by CliffStamp
-cut off the apex
-reshape on Suehiro 'Chemical' 320 grit (30 micron), 30seconds to 2minutes 30 seconds , 100-500 passes, depending on steel
-grind the edge on a 400 grit Naniwa Superstone (40 micron, muddy), 30seconds to 1 minute, 120-240 passes
-grind the edge on a 2000 Naniwa Aotoshi (8-9 micron muddy), 30seconds to 1 minute, 120-240 passes
-micro-bevel on 8000 , 10 seconds, 1-10 passes

So thats 300 to 1000 strokes.

Interesting way to review stones
cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/ns400.html
cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/suehiro_chemical_320.html
cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/naniwa_aotoshi.html





Bo-dacious said:
Oh, and is there a minimum grit that should make the edge not reflect light? Or is that another "depends" thing?
Click to expand...
Grits just sit there, you make the grits erase reflections by rubbing the knife on the grits.
This makes me think you have no abrasives, no knives, and have never tried sharpening.


Bo-dacious said:
Okay so maybe a dumb question again but I'm learning, but if I'm not cutting paper at 1000 grit, am I doing something wrong? What should I do differently? Could it be my stones?
Click to expand...
What are you doing?
Its not the equipment, its how you use it.

The question "maybe dumb" because you dont seem detailed in explaining how/why/what you're doing...
ask question, try out the answer, figure out how/why the answer works, then try again,
... this loop does not include buying more stuff,
just trying and using the stuff you own to figure it out what you're doing and what you should be doing

maybe writing down stuff on paper helps you remember what you've done, why, what you should do ...
 
Lets say a blade that is seriously dull but not damaged. Not really rounded over like the neighbors only kitchen knife but also not sharp enough to cut much of anything.

My routine looks like this :
120 about six strokes on each side.
220 about six strokes on each side.
500 about six strokes on each side.
1000 about six strokes on each side.
4000 about six strokes on each side.
. . . maybe a few partial strokes against the edge then with the edge to debur.
We are talking REAL tool steel here not some junk stainless from the bargain bin.
. . . so . . . thirty to forty strokes total . . . give or take.
And that is on them little tiny Edge Pro Apex stones. ;)
=
Hair whittling . . . just frighteningly sharp . . . my boss the other day tested it on his finger nail and unloaded it into my hands as fast as he could to get rid of it saying "I don't like sharp things".
;) :cool: :D :thumbsup:
Haha I offered to sharpen his SAK EDC but he won't take me up on it. It was a gift. But he won't accept.
IMG_3334.jpg
IMG_3602.jpg
 
was told to do 30 strokes at the lowest grit, then triple it for every grit I increase. For example, 30, 90, 270, etc.
Click to expand...
Hahahaha
. . . yes and while you are doing all that just keep chanting "Sharpening on stones free hand is A LOT faster than using a guided sharpener".
Say that over and over.
Although if you start to imagine you see unicorns you might want to stop for the day.
Practice makes perfect.
Machine tools make precise metal things.
 
Wowbagger said:
Blink of an eye (because I enjoy it).
YMMV
:)
Click to expand...
Slow blinker?
ok I'll make up some counts
5 stones * 6 strokes per * 2 sides + deburring = 100 strokes * 3 seconds = +300 seconds
5 stone change * 30 seconds = +150 seconds
clamping setup ... 1min? = + 60 seconds
300+150+60 =510 seconds / 60 seconds = 8.5min

1 stroke per second?
100+150+60 = 310 seconds / 60 seconds = 5.1666min
 
OK so if I can't shave after a 220 or 1000 grit stone, I'm doing something wrong then...

Bucketstove I know how grits sharpen knives and just sit there that's not what I meant. I mean at what grit do you guys get to where when you do the apex light reflection test (whatever it's called) does it not reflect light.

When I asked if I'm doing something wrong, I meant what is a common mistake people make when they need to use so many strokes I guess.

Well I got that I don't need as many strokes as I thought. I will keep an eye on my edge after each set of strokes and deburr at a higher angle..

Thank you for all who contributed to help me.

Bo
 
Your edge no longer reflects light when the bevels fully meet at an apex. This can be accomplished using stones of virtually any grit. I can use 60-grit stones for that stage of the process. The rest is just polishing.
 
Oh, I posted a reply but I don't see it here.
When you said you don't think I own knives or sharpen, I think you misunderstood me. What I was asking was is there a certain grit at which when you sharpen on this grit, the edge doesn't reflect light when you do the light reflection test. I do know the basics of how grit removes steel.

And yes, sometimes I forget to put certain information and assume people know what I'm thinking; I get that from my old man.
Sorry if I confused anybody.

This is good information, and I appreciate it all, even the smart-assed ones!

Thanks guys!
 
Okay it wasn't signed in. Now I see my old post. Still not used to this forum or any forums as I'm not very good with the internet and computers.

Thanks forty, I understand now. Get it sharp, then refine it with lower grits.

Thanks,

Bo
 
Bo-dacious said:
What I was asking was is there a certain grit at which when you sharpen on this grit, the edge doesn't reflect light when you do the light reflection test. I do know the basics of how grit removes steel.
Click to expand...
I see you've caught up,
but to clarify anyway,
a reflection, reflective apex, its a flat section at the end of your edge bevels
Code: 
    reflective surface (maximum dull or cut/off apex)
     |
     V
   ----  
  ///\\\       <--- metal that must be removed
 ////\\\\             to sharpen, to erase reflection
/////\\\\\            to raise burr, to make apex

So sharpening is removing metal from the sides until there is no more flat at the apex, no more reflection
Code: 
    burr raised, almost fully sharp
     |
     V    
     /  
    /\ 
   //\\
  ///\\\


    sharp, no burr left
     |
     V    
    /\ 
   //\\
  ///\\\
 
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