How much force do I use to remove the burr?

[Clang!]

I've been sharpening using medium (600 grit) and hard (1000 grit) Arkansas stones and mineral oil. I've found that 3-5 lbs of force against the medium stone (400-600 grit) will raise a burr nicely. My question is how much force do I use when polishing off the burr on the medium stone, and does it change when going to the hard stone?

TIA
Clang!

 

[HeavyHanded]

Part of this will depend on the condition of the stones, but generally something in the range of a few ounces is good. Much more than that and the burr will flip, the chase will be on. It doesn't change much from one grit to another in my experience. If the stones aren't in good shape it can require a microbevel and a little more pressure, but still will need to be no more than a quarter pound.

 

[cbwx34]

Deburring with light pressure, regardless of stone grit level, works best for me. If I have to raise the angle to do it, I use even lighter pressure, to avoid creating a new bevel (unless of course I want one).

 

[fervens]

As little as you can. Zero would be best.

 

[Ankerson]

As much as it takes and that will vary.....

 

[Fred.Rowe]

I much prefer snapping a wire edge off in one motion; where the wire edge is positioned away from you and the blade is held at 50 or even 60 degrees and moved across the stone or plate with one motion, at the same time the blade is rocked upwards from plunge lines to tip. It takes a bit of practice but there is much less chance of rounding over or convexing the apex. Try it; it works best with a large wire edge. I discovered the technique in an old Field & Stream from the 60's.

 

[Twindog]

The problem is not so much removing the burr, but removing the burr without recreating a new burr. The coarser the stone, the wider the bevel, the heavier the pressure, the longer the stroke will all act to recreate a new burr as you are removing the old burr.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Generally, 'as little as possible' would be my answer. But so much also depends on the steel and stones used. A ductile steel like 420HC or VG-10 (Spyderco) mandates feather-light touch when trying to gently abrade burrs away on ceramics (very hard abrasive), but will tolerate a little bit more pressure if doing the same thing on a black hard Arkansas stone (Novaculite grit isn't near as hard as the alumina in ceramics; I've used this for de-burring Spyderco's VG-10).

My favorite method, by far, for de-burring a wide range of steels from 1095 up through D2 and ZDP-189, is a linen-on-wood strop with white rouge compound (AlOx). The wood backing and thin linen will still be firm enough to minimize edge-rounding while aggressively stripping burrs away, but forgiving enough to avoid creating new or larger burrs with even heavy pressure. I've deliberately tried to create burrs on this strop, by really leaning into it, but I haven't been able to do it.


David

 

[Fred.Rowe]

If you are working with a truly flat ground edge, one that's @ a specific angle; the ERU is "BY FAR" the best method. It removes the wire and maintains the set angle and without distorting, or rounding over, the apex.

You can see this technique here: [video=youtube_share;iFzVjH8DXYo]http://youtu.be/iFzVjH8DXYo[/video]

Fred

 

[fnzeee]

I can vouch for the ERU...had mine for almost a week and have found it to be very good at removing a burr following more intense sharpening. Otherwise I would agree with previous posts to use as little pressure as possible. Use a cotton ball or piece of microfiber cloth to test the edge for a burr as you work it off.

 

[Clang!]

Part of this will depend on the condition of the stones, but generally something in the range of a few ounces is good. Much more than that and the burr will flip, the chase will be on. It doesn't change much from one grit to another in my experience. If the stones aren't in good shape it can require a microbevel and a little more pressure, but still will need to be no more than a quarter pound.

The stones are not new and could probably stand to be dressed. I normally sharpen at 15 degrees with a 20 degree microbevel on the hard stone as the last step. The steel is mostly 42x series (420, 420J2, 420HC, 425M, etc) pocket and kitchen knives.

I've been looking at strops and pastes, but since edge retention isn't a strong point for most of my collection, it seems to be beyond the point of diminishing returns.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

The stones are not new could probably stand to be dressed. I normally sharpen at 15 degrees with a 20 degree microbevel on the hard stone as the last step. The steel is mostly 42x series (420, 420J2, 420HC, 425M, etc) pocket and kitchen knives.

I've been looking at strops and pastes, but since edge retention isn't a strong point for most of my collection, it seems to be beyond the point of diminishing returns.

My view on stropping is, there's no such thing as beyond the point of diminishing returns. In fact, with 'softer' steels in particular, stropping with well-matched compounds can only benefit steels like these, and also makes them much easier to keep sharp. Stropping accounts for at least 95% of the upkeep on my 1095, 420HC and most or all of my other blades, and that has made things wonderfully simple from a maintenance standpoint. Almost never have to go back to hard stones, which will create burrs by their very nature. An unstropped edge in ductile steels like these is virtually a guarantee of diminished edge retention, because the newly stone-sharpened 'edge' that's left on the blade will most likely be a burr, or at least be impaired by burrs.


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

Part of this will depend on the condition of the stones, but generally something in the range of a few ounces is good. Much more than that and the burr will flip, the chase will be on. It doesn't change much from one grit to another in my experience. If the stones aren't in good shape it can require a microbevel and a little more pressure, but still will need to be no more than a quarter pound.

The stones are not new could probably stand to be dressed. I normally sharpen at 15 degrees with a 20 degree microbevel on the hard stone as the last step. The steel is mostly 42x series (420, 420J2, 420HC, 425M, etc) pocket and kitchen knives.

I've been looking at strops and pastes, but since edge retention isn't a strong point for most of my collection, it seems to be beyond the point of diminishing returns.

With Arkansas, a bit of dressing can go a long way and keep the amount of pressure needed to remove the burr (and any associated microbeveling) to an absolute minimum. This is something I came to understand - the surface quality of the stone is very important, especially if one wants to work with the least possible pressure. I'm now a bit OCD about it, with all stones.

IIRC the gentleman at Dan's told me they dress all of their stones from soft to translucent with 400 grit wet/dry and water, he said a lot of his customers preferred how their stones worked when new compared to after being broken in. I use some silicon carbide grit, some soapy water, and another bench stone. If they're already flat, another stone and some sandblasting grit should work real well - always with water or even a bit of oil. Arkansas stones can glaze real fast, especially the hard ones.

I never bothered stropping when I used Arkansas stones either, a good quality hard Arkansas on those steels will make a great edge with no extra work. Maybe stropping on plain newspaper wrapped around the medium will kick it up a notch. Stropping is still a great way to maintain the edge if properly managed, even on those steels - but if you're comfortable with your regimen, no need to change. I would definitely look into lapping/dressing them from time to time anyway...

 

[Clang!]

IIRC the gentleman at Dan's told me they dress all of their stones from soft to translucent with 400 grit wet/dry and water, he said a lot of his customers preferred how their stones worked when new compared to after being broken in. I use some silicon carbide grit, some soapy water, and another bench stone. If they're already flat, another stone and some sandblasting grit should work real well - always with water or even a bit of oil. Arkansas stones can glaze real fast, especially the hard ones.

The local Home Depot has 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper with a silicon carbide abrasive. I've been using 2" x 8" x 1/4" piece of aluminum stock for the backing.

 

[Sadden]

The stones are not new and could probably stand to be dressed. I normally sharpen at 15 degrees with a 20 degree microbevel on the hard stone as the last step. The steel is mostly 42x series (420, 420J2, 420HC, 425M, etc) pocket and kitchen knives.

I've been looking at strops and pastes, but since edge retention isn't a strong point for most of my collection, it seems to be beyond the point of diminishing returns.

The real trick is to establish a burr free edge straight off the stone. Use extremely light pressure (measured in ounces of pressure not pounds...) and use alternating edge leading strokes. Typically I remove any burr after my very first stone , and then again before moving onto strops. This is by far the best method for burr removal , relying on a strop or a gimmicky carbide scraper is a crutch , and in the case of the carbide scraper a great way to ruin all your work with the stones.

[video=youtube;j032eLxxhzc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j032eLxxhzc[/video]

Weather its Krupp 4116 (shown above) , or a supersteel such as S90V , S110V , ZDP-189 etc... This method works every single time. And allows you to get even better edges straight off your stone , and off your strop. Try it , it works.

If you are dealing with simple steels only then contact Ken and ask about his Alumina or Boron Carbide. Not much more expensive then Flitz or Mothers , and far far superior in terms of speed , particle size distribution , and the actual physical amount of abrasive present (measured in carats)

 

[HeavyHanded]

The local Home Depot has 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper with a silicon carbide abrasive. I've been using 2" x 8" x 1/4" piece of aluminum stock for the backing.

Sounds like you have it covered pretty well. My only other bit would be to leave any shed grit on the stone as you lap it down, the SiC will bust up and roll around till it works down to a paste. The loose grit makes a big difference IMHO.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

An unstropped edge in ductile steels like these is virtually a guarantee of diminished edge retention, because the newly stone-sharpened 'edge' that's left on the blade will most likely be a burr, or at least be impaired by burrs.


David

I agree; maintaining edges to where stropping is all thats needed to keep them at the level of sharpness desired, is a very sensible approach. The ERU is basically just an adjustable strop that does both sides at a time rather than one side; I use it in the manner you describe.

When you state the above, are you saying bringing an edge to sharp on a stone, without removing the wire edge by stropping leaves this condition? Is there no way to sharpen a blade on a hard stone that will not leave a burr? Such as changing the angle of approach and removing the wire in this manner.
If I let a knife go to the point where it cannot be bought back to the ready with a few strokes; I'll take it to the 2 x 72 belt with a Bubble Jig and recut the secondary edge, then move to the strop, in my case, an ERU.
My question is from the point of view of a total novice as far as working with stones.

Fred

 

[Alberta Ed]

I use as little pressure as possible to remove burrs. The edge at that stage is very fine -- akin to walking in spike heels on a golf green -- so it doesn't take much to multiply the pressure.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I agree; maintaining edges to where stropping is all thats needed to keep them at the level of sharpness desired, is a very sensible approach. The ERU is basically just an adjustable strop that does both sides at a time rather than one side; I use it in the manner you describe.

When you state the above, are you saying bringing an edge to sharp on a stone, without removing the wire edge by stropping leaves this condition? Is there no way to sharpen a blade on a hard stone that will not leave a burr? Such as changing the angle of approach and removing the wire in this manner.
If I let a knife go to the point where it cannot be bought back to the ready with a few strokes; I'll take it to the 2 x 72 belt with a Bubble Jig and recut the secondary edge, then move to the strop, in my case, an ERU.
My question is from the point of view of a total novice as far as working with stones.

Fred

Especially from that point of view, I believe it's almost impossible (as a NOVICE) to completely clean up burrs using only stones, as stones will almost create burrs by themselves in all but the most experienced hands. A well-practiced hand will improve on that over time, perhaps to a point where a strop won't be necessary or desired. But using a strop with well-selected compound (for the steel) makes burr cleanup a whole lot easier. This is why I strongly recommend it in cases like these, where the 'How do I get rid of these burrs?' question keeps coming up.

Part of the motivation for my reply is in specific reference to highly burr-prone steels like 420HC or VG-10, for which hard-backed strops and some white rouge have been a godsend for me, rendering the 'burr-prone' nature of the steel almost moot. Burrs aren't a concern anymore, after I've been approaching them in this way. I do still work to minimize the burrs coming off the hones as much as possible, while still knowing what little is left will quickly be erased on the strop.


David

 

[Fred.Rowe]

. This is by far the best method for burr removal , relying on a strop or a gimmicky carbide scraper is a crutch , and in the case of the carbide scraper a great way to ruin all your work with the stones.

I don't think you understand gimmickry or stropping for that matter. Gimmickry is where a person marketing a product points to a feature of that product, indicating that it is a special feature; but in truth it has little relevance to the task at hand. As for the ERU I will state out right "it is not a gimmick" That leaves your comment " a great way to ruin all your work" pretty much a moot point. As to stropping, which I do know a little about; it is not a crutch by worldly standards. Both of these would be included under tools and techniques since man has been on the earth there have been many.
The many techniques that are involved in or come under the heading of stropping have been around a little longer than the "widget" you have chosen to sharpen your blades. When a tool is made up of 50 parts does not mean it is a better tool; it just has more parts.
Even though the tool I make contains only three moving parts, does not mean its an inferior tool; it just has fewer parts.

I do realize we live in America and are constantly bombarded by the latest and greatest this and that. To choose one of those, a this or a that is challenging; there are so, so many choices.
So I guess the lesson is in all this is: one man's meat is another man's poison. You chose yours and I'll chose mine.

Fred