How to properly attach a guard?

[timcsaw]

Need a little help...

I'm putting together a knife for a friend and he wants it to have a brass guard on it. I've pinned on bolsters and done guards on hidden tangs, but don't know the proper method to use to attach this type of guard (and couldn't find anything in the "newbie thread").

I've included a couple of pics and you can see the type of guard I'm talking about. It will be flush with the blade back. The brass stock is 3/16 thick and the finished product will be similar in size to the piece of ply shown in the pictures. I'll put a bit of backward curve into it toward the fingers as well.

I suppose that I could drill it and pin it to the blade, but that just doesn't seem like the correct way to do it. Plus drilling through a piece of brass that's only 3/16 in width might be a real booger!

I don't imagine that simply epoxying it to the blade and handle would be proper either.

Do you weld/solder them on or what? What's the "right" way to do it?

Thanks for the help all!

 

[Darrin Sanders]

I usually use 1/4 in stock with 3/32 pins. If I were gonna use 3/16 I think I would try 1/16 pins. Put guard stock in a press vise center punch a couple spots, fit guard and blade together, then drill through blade & guard at the same time. Also put a pin in the first hole before you drill the second. I also seal the joint with JB Weld before peening pins. Hope this helps.

 

[john0270]

What about somthing like this instead... I think it would be more fitting to the blade style and use anyway.

 

[Nebulae]

is drilling through 3/16" long ways really an option? seems kinda risky too me

 

[Bill DeShivs]

You can solder the guard on with plain lead solder, or the cheap "silver bearing" solder. Using true silver solder will require too much heat.
Your fit should be exact.

 

[Darrin Sanders]

As long as your press and the guard are square it should be no harder to drill 3/16 than any other thickness.

 

[SBuzek]

I have drilled 3/16" guard w/1/16" pins and brass will drill easily.I use a 2" drill press vice and put one side of the guard in the vice and rest the blade on the viceand then drill.Drill one holeand put a pin in it and then drill the second.
When you get the pins in peen very gently or you will blow out the sides of the guard,don't ask how i know this
Stan

 

[timcsaw]

What about somthing like this instead... I think it would be more fitting to the blade style and use anyway.

That would be a style I'd go for myself... I like brass bolsters, but the guy says he wants a guard... I'm gonna' try to talk him out of it.

A guard won't look terrible, but I think a nice bolster would look great. The style of blade could probably go either way... I'll shoot a pic of the whole blade blank so you can see what I mean/comment.

 

[timcsaw]

You can solder the guard on with plain lead solder, or the cheap "silver bearing" solder. Using true silver solder will require too much heat.
Your fit should be exact.

I wondered about soldering... but didn't know if you could really get the solder to "sweat in".

Seems like it would take more heat than I'd like to apply to get it to sweat without bothering the heat treat.

Maybe it would require less heat than I imagine.?.?

 

[timcsaw]

As long as your press and the guard are square it should be no harder to drill 3/16 than any other thickness.

I have drilled 3/16" guard w/1/16" pins and brass will drill easily.I use a 2" drill press vice and put one side of the guard in the vice and rest the blade on the viceand then drill.Drill one holeand put a pin in it and then drill the second.
When you get the pins in peen very gently or you will blow out the sides of the guard,don't ask how i know this
Stan

I don't see drilling 3/16 for 1/16 pins to be a real problem as I do have the tools to do the job... It'll just be a necessarily slow, delicate drilling process (not much room for error).

Thanks for the tip about "gentle peening" Stan... See that happen on another guys knife did ya'?

 

[timcsaw]

As I say, personally, I think a nice bolster would look better than a guard so I just showed my friend (neighbor actually) some examples to consider... He's thinking about it.

The only "problem" I find with bolsters is that your handle material (maple burl for this knife), MUST start out at the thickness of the bolster (3/16 in my case), and then taper out to palm swell/grip shape and thickness. Of course when using a guard, you can start the handle material at something closer to the size of the palm swell/tapered shape (could start at 1/4 in. or larger if you wanted too).

================================

Before I could finish this post, he called me to ask about another idea he has concerning the handle... He likes the look of the Damascus in the handle itself and asked if there was any way to make the handle so that some of the Damascus would still visible around the maple... as I understand him, he's considering more of an "insert" than a edge-flush, full tang handle. I've seen this done on some folders but never on a full tang straight blade.

He envisions having the handle built so that you could still see perhaps as much as 1/4 inch of the handle Damascus all the way around the maple... Still follow the shape of the steel, but a smaller piece of wood which would be pinned on like an insert. I told him that I thought it would be nice to see the Damascus yes, but wouldn't be too comfortable to hold and use IMO... especially with the file work all around the blade. I suggested that I could leave part of the heal of the handle with the Damascus showing for a lanyard or something if he wants to see the Damascus in the handle... He's thinking about it.

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This brings me to another question... when do you as the knife maker (assembler in the case of this knife), just say "no" to the recipient of the knife? He's never had a "nice" knife, and frankly, though I can probably do whatever he wants, it will STILL be something with my name on it (so to speak). Not sure how to handle him. Normally, I build a knife and then gift it to someone "as is"... You take what I give you!. I've never done something to order like this.
(I do this as a fun hobby and I'm just not feeling it in this knife)

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Afterthought questions; has anyone ever made a guard out of anything other than a metal? Perhaps Rams Horn, a contrasting wood, etc.??? Might not be rugged enough as a guard???

By the way, a BIG thanks to all for the help and opinions, as a newbie, it's comforting to know you are all out there and willing to offer help and advice.

Here is a pic of the blade blank (and the maple).

Whadya' think? Will a guard work or does it really more lend itself to bolsters?

What about his "insert" idea to allow more of the Damascus in the handle to show?

 

[dillon_b12]

Could you put a cut out in the maple to leave a "window" that shows the damascus in the handle? I think that would look really nice if done well.

 

[JasonSCarter]

Sorry about the horrible pic Tim, but maybe you could do something like this...

 

[Jack O'Neill]

make a bolster out of the same damascus . Your finger grooves create the guard , Some customers will ask for everything they have ever seen on other knives . There comes a time to say no or more bucks .

 

[Patrickknives]

I alway pin and solder my guards especially brass, I know alot of people will use JB Weld in place of solder which seems to work fine. Only trick on drilling is to be careful not to break the bit, typically will snag a bit where it goes from the brass to the steel.

If the blade is alread heat treated you cannot drill anyway so that may not be an option.

I also slot the blade to accept the guard so that you get a nice clean transition at the bottom, otherwise there will be a gap. You dont need much just a 1/4 or so to hide where the two meet. This will also add strength to the guard attachement. If the blade is heat treated you can make the slot with a dremmel tool.

To make a long story shorter, I am guessing that the blade has been heat treated which means its alot of trouble to drill. I would use a dremmel tool to make a slot at the bottom for the guard and solder the guard in place, if you are not comfortable soldering then use JB Weld.

 

[argel55]

go over to knifedogs and check out the Billy Helton knife. He used a clear epoxy and left an oval in the handle so you could see the damascus in the handle.

 

[timcsaw]

go over to knifedogs and check out the Billy Helton knife. He used a clear epoxy and left an oval in the handle so you could see the Damascus in the handle.

Thanks for the "heads up" on the Billy Helton knife argel55. It's given me some ideas to consider.

I think I've convinced my neighbor to forgo the guard and go with a brass bolster instead. I think a bolster will look much better.

This is going to be an interesting build... The Billy Helton "window" (shown below) is a really neat idea and I have a plan to incorporate something like that into this handle.

I (we've) decided to use something other than the Maple Burl in this... Why cut a "window" into such a nice piece of burl! Too much waste IMO. I'm looking at doing something with some interesting grained wood and some Ram's Horn instead.

I find that I have to (like to?) spend a lot of time just looking at a particular blade and the handle materials I have available before I actually come up with a design. I have to mull it over in my mind for some time before I'm ready to start cutting anything. Just me I guess, or maybe it's normal, I don't know?

I have a blade that I made from a Damascus billet that I've done everything on except the heat treatment (my design, my grinds etc.) and I've been staring at it for a couple of months! Something will come to me eventually!

The Billy Helton blade with the "window";

 

[argel55]

Patrickknives does the slot the same way I do except I was told by a well know maker to make it a half round up into the blade. Less chance of a stress riser that way. He also said he made the gap between the guard and side of the handle .003 undersize. He could drive it on once to size it but not twice - too loose the second time. I solder too.

 

[timcsaw]

I also slot the blade to accept the guard so that you get a nice clean transition at the bottom, otherwise there will be a gap. You dont need much just a 1/4 or so to hide where the two meet. This will also add strength to the guard attachement. If the blade is heat treated you can make the slot with a dremmel tool.

Patrickknives does the slot the same way I do except I was told by a well know maker to make it a half round up into the blade. Less chance of a stress riser that way. He also said he made the gap between the guard and side of the handle .003 undersize. He could drive it on once to size it but not twice - too loose the second time. I solder too.

You guys are losing me with this talk of "slotting" the blade for the guard/bolster.

Let me establish a couple terms so I can try to understand this "slotting";
The "Blade Back" to me is the narrow edge of the blank opposite the cutting edge. When holding the blank like a knife, your thumb would rest on the Blade Back.

"Blade Bottom" to me is the opposite edge of the blank, on the edge with the sharp part.

Then you have the "sides" of the blank. Scales and bolsters are attached/pinned/epoxied to the "sides" of the blank.

Now that I've defined the terms as I understand them, perhaps I can figure out this "slot" you guys are making.

When you say "making a slot" for the guard, are we talking about making a notch or slot on the Blade Bottom that the guard fits tightly into? Or are we talking about a "slot" across each Side of the blade from Blade Back, down to Blade bottom?

I'm going to pull my pic from the beginning post and photoshop some notes on it that might help me understand this.

I have pinned on bolsters. The difficult part is making sure that the side of the bolster that will go against the side of the blade is flat and true. If it isn't, you can see a slight gap where the bolster meets the blade. I think the "slot" you are talking about solves this problem???

I'll post a photoshopped pic in a few minutes.

Thanks for all the input by the way...:thumbup:

 

[timcsaw]

Refer to question number 1; If I cut a slot across each side of the blade, that was the width of the guard material, the guard would set into that slot and eliminate the "GAP" problem between the guard and blade. The green line is supposed to represent the "slot" that would be cut with a dremel.

OR

Refer to question 2; If I cut a notch up into the bottom of the blade that was the width of the guard material, the guard would slide up into the slot and sort of "lock" it in... this would NOT however solve the problem of the "Gap" described above.

So which is it fella's? A "slot" on each SIDE of the blank, or a "slot" on the BOTTOM of the blank?