How to sharpen a dagger...?

I

ilikelittleknives

Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
6
So... my husband got a new toy from Harbor Freight for the express purpose of sharpening knives. A band saw. He's been sharpening everything he can get his hands on, and hardly has any hair on his forearms from showing off how sharp they are.

Finally I gave him my Case XX toothpick and he did a good job on it. A couple other little knives and the have great edges, then I let him have my little Sarco dagger that I got out of Sportsmans Guide catalog about 20 years ago. Says it's surgical steel, doesn't say china. He has a hard time getting an edge he likes and somehow in all the polishing the dagger point disappears, it's actually rounded. I am feeling pretty boo hoo about it. It's not that it's an expensive knife, but I like little knives and it's my knife. My question is, is there a specific technique about how to sharpen daggers? I had a $15 survival knife that I got from Big 5 Sporting goods, that has an angle on it from the cutting edge up to the point, instead of a curve, and he did a great job leaving the point on that angle, so maybe it really is just soft metal?

Any info, recommendations and how-to's would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Marianne
 
A lot of unknowns here. I'm not familiar with the Sarco brand, but looking at their web site, it seems many of their current offerings are 'reproductions' of classic edged weapons. If yours was made for that market, intended more as a display piece, it may be that the steel quality won't support a truly sharp, durable working edge. I don't see any info on their site about steel type, either, which suggests their current line isn't designed with edge durability in mind. If yours is an imported knife, older Japanese-made knives were often labelled as 'surgical steel', though that doesn't really prove or imply anything about the quality of the steel. Most daggers I've seen also have very thick grinds on narrow blades, which makes sharpening to a fine-slicing edge difficult or even impossible. A dagger's shape is naturally tailored to piercing/thrusting without breaking, as opposed to slicing.

Having said that, it should still be possible to re-shape the edge and tip on it, even if it's only for show. A picture of your knife would be very helpful, to figure out the best way to go about it. If you have or use a photo-hosting account from photobucket or a similar site, you can upload pics to that site, and link the IMG code in your posts here. Pics always generate more interest, and should generate more quality feedback to help you out.

Welcome to the forum. :)
 
Sharpening a dagger on a belt is a real challenge for me, probably for lack of practice. I've done a grand total of four of them now, in the few hundred knives I've done for people. So far I've only had to re-do one of them to recover the point, but what I learned is that it's really no different than sharpening a normal knife... except that you have to do it four times PERFECTLY if you want all four bevels to meet in a nice, clean diamond point.

Also, be really careful with the temperatures. A point like that has quite a bit of grinding going on with four bevels instead of just the regular two, and tends to be finer than a conventional knife. That can lead to a lot of heat build-up right at the tip if you're not careful.
 
Komitadjie said:
Sharpening a dagger on a belt is a real challenge for me, probably for lack of practice. I've done a grand total of four of them now, in the few hundred knives I've done for people. So far I've only had to re-do one of them to recover the point, but what I learned is that it's really no different than sharpening a normal knife... except that you have to do it four times PERFECTLY if you want all four bevels to meet in a nice, clean diamond point.

Also, be really careful with the temperatures. A point like that has quite a bit of grinding going on with four bevels instead of just the regular two, and tends to be finer than a conventional knife. That can lead to a lot of heat build-up right at the tip if you're not careful.
Click to expand...

That's an excellent 'point' too (pun not originally intended, but it works :)). Not only do you have to sharpen the cutting edge, but you have to do it to the 'spine' of the blade too. All-the-more tedious and complex.

Thanks, Komitadjie. :thumbup:
 
Thanks David and Komitadjie. I have taken pictures and am battling getting them loaded. I will have them up for sure tomorrow...
 
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3wDniIB-7QKQzVtb1VGR3RUVDA/edit

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3wDniIB-7QKQzVtb1VGR3RUVDA/edit

I just tried to insert two pix, and if that fails, two links. But I just tried 'Google Drive' tonight and I am not sure they will share. Let me know.

You guys are mentioning bevels, I think the knife use to have a bevel on both edges, but that is gone now. It's smooth down to the edge, like a kitchen knife. Let me know if the links don't work. I will do more pix too.

Marianne

I see it didn't work. I'll try something different tomorrow. :-(
 
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ilikelittleknives said:
edit


edit


http://https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3wDniIB-7QKQzVtb1VGR3RUVDA/edithttps://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3wDniIB-7QKQzVtb1VGR3RUVDA/edit

I just tried to insert two pix, and if that fails, two links. But I just tried 'Google Drive' tonight and I am not sure they will share. Let me know.

You guys are mentioning bevels, I think the knife use to have a bevel on both edges, but that is gone now. It's smooth down to the edge, like a kitchen knife. Let me know if the links don't work. I will do more pix too.

Marianne

I see it didn't work. I'll try something different tomorrow. :-(
Click to expand...

Yeah, the link you have requires a login to view anything (for me, anyway). I'd still suggest trying photobucket (it's what I use, and it's free), and upload your pics there. Once the pics are there, it's pretty straightforward to copy the IMG code for each pic, and paste it into your post here.
 
having seen the image my recommendation is that you reprofile the tip by hand and just finish the edge with sand paper and a mousepad.

-Take a single cut mill bastard file and carefully create the 4 bevels to give it a sharp point
-Take a mouse pad and some 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 grit sand paper (or whatever high grit you have)
-Place the flat main grind bevel on the pad and, keeping it flat, run it along the pad from the center of the knife towards the cutting edge. You dont have to try to raise the knife to create a convex or anything fancy, by keeping the knife's main grind flat on the pad and pushing down just a little, the give of the mouse pad will curve up to meet the cutting edge. Do this on all 4 bevels to knock off the burr and to fine in the tips edges. This should be enough to give you a hair shaving sharp and pointed tip.
 
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ilikelittleknives said:
Thanks Last Visible Canary that is excellent advice. I will try it.

And thanks David, I will create a PhotoBucket account.
Click to expand...

You may not need to. The first time I clicked on your existing link, I was directed to a login screen. A minute ago, after clicking on it again, I was able to see your pic. No idea what changed (if anything). Edit: I see you've edited your links; looks like it's fixed. :thumbup:
 
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I can see the pictures pretty well, with those serrations, my guess is it isn't meant to be used... and if it is, it'll probably get stuck in the person if not their clothing.

I too will recommend using a mill file to bring the tip back. My recommendation is if you have a work table to screw a 2x4 onto the table lip and use a ripped section of 2x4 as a vice. you put the blade between the scraps and then screw the scraps together with the blade between them.

Now it should be clamped with the tip of the dagger aiming INTO the bench if you want to do it safely. The height of the 2x4 should give you plenty of room to work with for putting a bevel on the knife.

With how rounded the tip is and depending on your preference, your tip can be fixed but not as long, or else you'll have to remove more metal from the bevels and thin the dagger out to maintain its original proportions.

After you've decided how you want to repair the tip it's as easy as using a protractor to get a feel for the angle you want, then start filing, with it being surgical steel it's probably very soft and a mill bastard file should hog off metal very easily.

To sharpen the other side, simply unscrew your gerry rigged clamp, flip the knife over and start on the other side.

Take time to make sure you're keeping your bevels fairly even.

If you want to you can take sand paper and tape it to your file and work it up to a grit that you like.

I hope what I've written is understandable, if not I could probably mock up and post pictures.

Best of luck!
 
For some reason I keep getting my links messed up, here is the other picture of the knife I kept trying to post:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3wDniIB-7QKUzhDSFJoMnFPYW8/edit

Skimo, I don't think the knife was designed for self defense, more of an outdoorsy handy-dandy little knife... if you like little knives like I do.

To be honest, looking at the effort to repair it, and I don't know that I'd be able to do it, and looking at how much of the steel he polished away, I don't think it can be fixed without reducing the beveled knife edge till it was too small to be a logical tool. I'm bummed. Lesson learned don't sharpen daggers on a band saw.
 
ilikelittleknives said:
Skimo, I don't think the knife was designed for self defense, more of an outdoorsy handy-dandy little knife... if you like little knives like I do.
Click to expand...

The design is actually a second hand copy of a fairbairn-sykes dagger, seen through the gerber prism. The original design was very much meant to be a fighting knife (as apposed to combat which implies use in combat zones, or a 'heavy use knife'). The bevels were to short and stout to excell at anything other than stabbing, and if you put a zero edge on it (puuko style) the knife would become quickly dulled in the muddy environments the men worked in, resulting in a poor general use knife anyways. Thats not to say it can't be done, it's just difficult to optimize and maintain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbairn-Sykes_Fighting_Knife
800px-Fairburnsykes_colour4.jpg


which was later reconceptualized into the mark series from gerber. The mark series was better at general knife duties than the original fairbairn-sykes because it had wider bevels allowing more useful geometry that could carry a secondary bevel, but it still suffers from being a dagger. 'outdoorsy' tends to imply good at wood working, shelter making, or skinning, all of which benefit from having a spine that can be handled for extreme detail work, which is difficult to do with a full second edge. It also is a poor choice for wood working because of the short bevel (even on the mark series) unless it's brought down to a puuko zero edge. If you find that you enjoy using it in outdoors activities thats all that really matters, you use the tools you like and work well with how you use them. But, the original design was very much a 'self defense', or fighting knife.
http://thegerberknives.com/mark.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerber_Mark_II
markII_main1.jpg
 
ilikelittleknives said:
For some reason I keep getting my links messed up, here is the other picture of the knife I kept trying to post:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3wDniIB-7QKUzhDSFJoMnFPYW8/edit

Skimo, I don't think the knife was designed for self defense, more of an outdoorsy handy-dandy little knife... if you like little knives like I do.

To be honest, looking at the effort to repair it, and I don't know that I'd be able to do it, and looking at how much of the steel he polished away, I don't think it can be fixed without reducing the beveled knife edge till it was too small to be a logical tool. I'm bummed. Lesson learned don't sharpen daggers on a band saw.
Click to expand...

Are you sure he is using the saw and not a sander ???

Richard
 
Tinbasher: Of course it's the sander not the saw! (LOL) :-D By Golly let's have another sip of that wine while we type!

LVC: Thanks for the deep background on the design. Your knowledge is awesome. I was aware of the fairbairn-sykes but had never researched it, only read about it's use. All I meant by 'not designed for self defense' is actually an endorsement of what Skimo said: 'not designed to be used'. Let's be honest, I just like little knives, so I bought it because I like it, and for no other purpose. In general knives are handy and I have little knives all over the house that I use when I need a sharp point or edge for some reason. But in general I keep them in a box under my bed and take them and admire them and show them to people who mention interest when the subject of my little knife collection comes up.

So this little knife was 6 inches long from point to end, but is no longer. If it is true that the metal is soft, to try to put the bevel back and fix the point would likely reduce the blade even further, and while studying on it now, I see the blade is in fact somewhat ruined on the other side of the serration. The blade width below the serration is fully 1/2 inch, and after the serration is most definitely less than 1/2 inch. so oh well, looks like it will end it's life as a letter opening or other tool where a sharp point and edge is not needed.

The joyful part of this is I get to search for another little knife, but now I am armed with more info, I think I will get a little knife that will be actually be useful for self defense. After extensive distraction searching through knives on ebay, I came upon this one that I think I like: http://www.ebay.com/itm/United-Sub-Commander-SILVER-Mini-Boot-Knife-UC2725-NEW-/270822940201?pt=Collectible_Knives&hash=item3f0e4e1e29#ht_2223wt_1396

To be honest I think this one is more like the one I have that this thread is about: http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-1-2-Survivor-Boot-Dagger-Satin-Finish-Blade-Stealth-Dagger-VZKC-HK-740SL-/280892301140?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41667c5f54#ht_984wt_1163
so I don't know how good having the Sarco brand on the first one was. Makes me wonder, but it is about 20 years old.

Here's another little knife I thought might be good for self defense: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-6-NECK-KNIFE-DOUBLE-EDGE-DAGGER-black-MINI-TAC-/250877337963?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6974616b#ht_500wt_1180

But I think I like the first one above because it has the groove in it.

Actually just researched AUS-6 steel and maybe it's not so good. The steel might be soft as well: "AUS-6 (6A) is comparable to 440A with a carbon content close to 0.65%.[6] It is a low cost steel, slightly higher wear resistance compared to 420J." (wikipedia.org)

Also, just researched 'surgical steel' on Wikipedia as well, and it would seem that if my Sarco blade was made out of surgical steel as it is stamped, it should be strong. Meaning that my husband must have got carried away sharpening it, as so much of the blade is gone.

Oh well.
 
ilikelittleknives said:
Tinbasher: Of course it's the sander not the saw! (LOL) :-D By Golly let's have another sip of that wine while we type!

LVC: Thanks for the deep background on the design. Your knowledge is awesome. I was aware of the fairbairn-sykes but had never researched it, only read about it's use. All I meant by 'not designed for self defense' is actually an endorsement of what Skimo said: 'not designed to be used'. Let's be honest, I just like little knives, so I bought it because I like it, and for no other purpose. In general knives are handy and I have little knives all over the house that I use when I need a sharp point or edge for some reason. But in general I keep them in a box under my bed and take them and admire them and show them to people who mention interest when the subject of my little knife collection comes up.

So this little knife was 6 inches long from point to end, but is no longer. If it is true that the metal is soft, to try to put the bevel back and fix the point would likely reduce the blade even further, and while studying on it now, I see the blade is in fact somewhat ruined on the other side of the serration. The blade width below the serration is fully 1/2 inch, and after the serration is most definitely less than 1/2 inch. so oh well, looks like it will end it's life as a letter opening or other tool where a sharp point and edge is not needed.

The joyful part of this is I get to search for another little knife, but now I am armed with more info, I think I will get a little knife that will be actually be useful for self defense. After extensive distraction searching through knives on ebay, I came upon this one that I think I like: http://www.ebay.com/itm/United-Sub-...ble_Knives&hash=item3f0e4e1e29#ht_2223wt_1396

To be honest I think this one is more like the one I have that this thread is about: http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-1-2-Survi...ultDomain_0&hash=item41667c5f54#ht_984wt_1163
so I don't know how good having the Sarco brand on the first one was. Makes me wonder, but it is about 20 years old.

Here's another little knife I thought might be good for self defense: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-6-NECK-KN...ultDomain_0&hash=item3a6974616b#ht_500wt_1180

But I think I like the first one above because it has the groove in it.

Actually just researched AUS-6 steel and maybe it's not so good. The steel might be soft as well: "AUS-6 (6A) is comparable to 440A with a carbon content close to 0.65%.[6] It is a low cost steel, slightly higher wear resistance compared to 420J." (wikipedia.org)

Also, just researched 'surgical steel' on Wikipedia as well, and it would seem that if my Sarco blade was made out of surgical steel as it is stamped, it should be strong. Meaning that my husband must have got carried away sharpening it, as so much of the blade is gone.

Oh well.
Click to expand...
I have the little UC Sub Commander w/serrated edge. I used it once to cut an arcing lamp cord and, forgetting there is no spine, drove the famgs into my stupid finger. My doctor said that daggers may not be right for me, and heavy bleeding is the most commonly reported side effect. Interestingly enough, I put the treacherous little Sub Comm on my KME tonight and got it somewhat sharp and somewhat polished. One needs must pay special attention regarding the four bevels, however, it can be done. Smiths Crock Sticks or a Spyderco Sharp maintainer may be just the thing to make it even more dangerous, but I digress. Pick one up at any fine retail establishment or in your grocers freezer. They're fun but devious. No loyalty whatsoever. Sad.
 
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Hi, I'm new here, so... greetings, one and all! Can anyone please advise me, or have any tips, on sharpening the blade of my Benchmade Mini Infidel ( tinyurl.com/19ag907a )? It has an edge both sides of the blade, ground both front and back. Not sure of the vernacular - i have a lot to learn!

Thanks in advance,

Sol
 
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