How to tell a handmade knife in 25 words.

K

Knife Outlet

Joined
Jan 4, 1999
Messages
3,000
Bernard Levine posed an interesting question on rec.knives.

He said if there were a pile of knives, some production and some custom, he could sort through them and make two piles with complete accuracy. One pile would have the customs and the other the production knives. The differences are obvious to him but nearly impossible to describe in a few words.

His question was how do you describe how to tell the difference in 25 words or less. Personally, I gave up. I could sort the piles, too, but I couldn't tell anybody how to do that in 25 words or less. Any thoughts?

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Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com

 
Makers name, made by that maker, price, meets Knifemakers Guild and ABS guidlines for being a handmade knife.

18 words, do I get a prize.

Guys if you don't know the difference between a factory and a custom knife. Better go get some education. Knive's 2000 will be a good place to start. They have a huge index of custom knife makers in the back (as well as all the factories). This will be your first step in your quest to find out if it is a custom or not.

Here is the biggest hint of all....the makers who's name is on the blade is the one who made it. Yes there are exception's,(most notably Chris Reeve). no it doesn't count if Benchmade, Spyderco, Outdoor Edge, CRKT or some other factory name is on the blade as well. This is your second hint that it is NOT a custom knife.

Third hint, if it is a folder, under $200, talks about discounted price and features some steel you never heard of. It's a factory knife.

Steve if you ever have a question whether it is a factory or a custom, email me. I can tell you if it is or not.

Maybe I have just been in custom knives too long. Can it really be that tough?

Les
 
I agree with Les. I do not think Bernard stuck his neck out too far on this one.

The distinction would be pretty obvious on modern era knives. 19th century and early 20th century pieces would be a challenge for many including myself, but not for Mr. Levine.

Was he talking about antique, or modern era pieces?

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 23 October 1999).]
 
Les,

You defined a custom knife but didn't answer the question as Bernard intended it. I made the same mistake. You are trying to describe to someone who doesn't know about knives how to tell a custom apart from a production knife. Such a person wouldn't know a custom maker's mark from a production mark nor would he understand ABS requirements or know what they are.

Your definition would work for a knife knowledgeable person but not for a tyro. If someone put out a pile of knives you had never seen and didn't recognize, I'm certain you could separate the custom knives from the production ones. You'd simply look at them and feel them and know which are which because you're experienced. You could likely do it blindfolded. So, how do you describe that in a few words to someone with little experience? What is the essence of the look and feel of a custom knife that separates it from a production knife? One could write a book about it (I assume Bernard wants this short description for a book,) but can it be defined in just a few words? It baffles me.

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Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com

 
Guys: IMHO, the question, as posed, is impossible. Someone with no knowledge of knives would need hundreds if not thousands of words (read: KNOWLEDGE) to be able to separate the knives. This is especially true if there is only one of each type on the table-My first thought is you could discern differences between two custom knives of the same model due to the minute differences caused by being handmade.
If you have sufficient knowledge, I'd bet you could get 95% correct with a blindfold on-just by recognizing patterns, feeling injection molded handles, etc.
My best advice to someone faced with this dilemma would be "use your intuition", or, if they were under age 30, "use the force"

RJ Martin
 
Steve,

Actually, my definition would work with those who know nothing. It would show them things to look for immediatly, it would give them questions to ask knife sellers and finally would lead them to a definitive source(s) for a place that can answer all their questions.

Webster couldn't do it any better. A basic defenition is just that, basic. As RJ pointed out full description would take volumes.

Steve the thing I find most interesting about this. Is that the question most often seems to confuse those who sell and/or buy factory knives.

If you were to walk into any custom knife show and ask a dealer, maker, supplier or semi-knowledgeable buyer of custom knives. Just in a glance they could tell you if it was custom or not.

Custom knives, like most collectibles, takes lots of research for collectors to develop an "eye" for raw talent, superior work, etc.

However, to the novice of any endeavor, it takes a lot of questions.

Steve, the best thing to do is to direct your clients to different educational sources. After all isn't that how all of us learn.

Les

 
Les, you could pare down one more word; Price. In today’s modern market, there are more and more high-end companies pushing their products into the "custom" price range. And an inexpensive knife made by a new maker would still fit into the Knifemakers Guild and ABS guidelines for being a handmade knife.

Webster is peaceful in his grave.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA


 
Maybe I'm missing the point, but isn't this question about discerning the aesthetic differences between custom and production? What seperates an A.G. Russell or Buck stag horn bowie from a custom version (if they were unmarked and price was unknown)? Are there readily apparent intangibles that distinguish one from the other and, if so, could you sum up the process used to differentiate them in 25 words? I should probably go over to rec.knives and check the thread, but this seems to be the direction they're headed.

Jack
 
I would tell them to consider the wow factor.

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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
I followed the thread on rec.knives and am not sure of Mr. Levine's intentions--whether he was having fun or was serious. He stated that he and Ken Warner would "just know" the difference between custom and production, but could anyone actually explain this difference in 25 words or less. Personally, I think most of us who have been around knives for at least a few years would also "just know", but trying to explain it in 25 words or less is the challenge.

Dave R
 
James,

If you go back and look at my further explination of price, you'll see i set parameter's for factories. Your right, factories are getting amazing prices. But remember, first the factory gets paid, then the super wholesaler gets paid, then the distributer gets paid, then the wholesaler who finally sells it to the public gets paid.

Lots of people paying $100 for a $30.00 knife.

But yes, custom knives can be less expensive than factory knives, but generally not in the same category.

Jack,

There is a world of difference between factory and custom. Even without the names. Much like quick diets, you cannot gain years of experience about knives in 8 minutes a day and be an expert in 6 weeks on this plan.

It is incumbant upon each of you to spend the time and money necessary to learn the difference's between these knives.

Obviously, there is a reason a factory knife costs what it does as opposed to a custom knife.

Consider this. Working standard steel or aluminum, two favorites for factories. The standard drill bit to make holes in these cost's approximately .50 cents apiece. A cobalt drill bit to work titanium cost's approximately $5.00 apiece. Already, you can start to see the cost difference appearing just at this base level. Of course if you are going to work titanium, you'll want a higher speed drill with a more powerful engine to turn the cobalt drill bit. Im sure you can follow this.

If any of you really want to know why custom knives cost what they cost. Go make a knife.
Then put it against a knife of a maker who has only been doing it for a few years. You will be amazed at the difference's. Hopefully you can borrow all the tools and machines so you dont have to make that several thousand dollar outlay for equipment.

L6

Ok Mr. Peter's, please define the WOW factor in 25 words or less. In keeping with the WOW factor, do you really think "sizzle" or "substance" sells a product better. Interestingly enough your answer to this question will show the initial tack of your course towards stardom.

I do agree with you that the WOW factor can influence the buyer's decision. But the WOW factor can also be used on the factory side, so it's a push.

Dave R,

You are correct as well. It would be almost impossible in 25 words or less to define the difference. It takes education on the part of the consumer and the seller.

Question, what is the diffence in price of the two different pennies made by the US Mint in 1943. For my fellow numismatists the question is a no brainer. However, for the non-coin collector out there. This will be puzzling question. The answer is several thousand dollars. But why?

You would probably want to know that answer before you spent that 1943 penny!


Guys,

Ulitmately, it is your responsiblity to learn about collectabiles that you are thinking about purchasing.

Also, buy what you like. But don't try and make your knife something it's not. There is a reason the Buck Custom Shop closed. It did not pay it's way.

Les
 
Les,
You put it perfectly, something as a new collector is a valuable lesson.
"...custom knives can be less expensive than factory knives, but generally not in the same category."
When would a factory made knife be a better value? Would it ever be true for a new factory made knife? I guess the real question is why buy factory made knives at all?
 
PhiLl,

My observation has been that most people purchase factory knives due to the price (cost is a completly different thing).

Either they cannot afford a custom, do not feel that custom knives warrant the price or they like the affordability of factory knives. The latter allows them to buy something everytime they go to a show and still stay within their budget.

I know for myself I switched to custom knives because of the cost. Cost= long term what the knife can and cannot do for you. When I was in the Army I needed a knife that literally I could bet my life. I did not find that in the factory side of the house.

Even though the price may have been better, the possible cost of the factory knife made it more "expensive".

Doesn't matter what you buy. Just understand what the cost is of purchasing anything. Don't let the "price" be the deciding factor.

Les
 
I think we're in the snarl of definitions again, som people talking apples and some talking oranges.

Looking a at knife it should be fairly easy to recognize a lot of indications HOW it was made - but I don't think those are the categories some folks are really discussing.

For example, every Kuhkri is "handmade." Cheap $10 daggers from Pakistan are often 100% "handmade," using tools most U.S. knifemakers wouldn't even consider (e.g. sanding drums for blade grinding). All U.S. Blackjacks are "handmade" (as well as most any knife from Seki City), though not by a single person. These are all as much "handmade" as most "customs"*- often moreso. But I think we want to put them in the "factory" category, don't we?

Tough. Made by hand is made by hand. Made by machine is made by machine, too, no matter whose name is one it. If a knife is made by a person holding it or holding the tool, it is obvious. No, I can't sum it up in 25 words, but I could show it in 25 minutes, given a decent assortment of knives.

Next question: why do we care? That's not a rhetorical question - I care because I just like to see skill in certain areas and not in others. I love to see nice grinding or filework. Nice beadblasting does nothing for me. I don't have much appreciation for skillful programming of a CNC-machine. But those are my tastes alone - everyone's will vary.

-Drew

*note I use this colloquially to denote "by a single maker," not as I feel it should be used: "having customer-specified features."
 
In twenty-four words:

"The edge and heft of a custom made knife is superior in every respect to that of a factory made knife of like design."

Remove the names and other identifying features of a custom and factory version of similar knives and that statement is true 100% of the time. Hold a real Terzuola next to the factory signature model, and even the least educated knife user's wife will pick the custom as a better knife. Same with an Emerson phaser versus the Timberline, same with the BM Stryker and Allen's original, etc. The quality of the blade edge is obvious to any observer. This is not to denigrate the factory knives - I think they are great examples of the genre. But, as Les so expertly noted, the factory knife may not be the knife you want to bet your life on...

As an aside, I am very happy to recognize that this is something humans do better than machines, and always will. I willingly pay the extra cost for the unique contribution the maker adds to these tools.
 
That is only useable when the knife in question has a production counterpart, which 99.99% of handmades don't. I also don't think it's entirely true, if you extend the criteria to folders. I have handled several handmades by one of the makers you mentioned and several production versions of the same (or a similar) knife. The action and lockup on the production versions was better in every case.

-Drew
 
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