I guess you can't make everyone happy

[KenOnion]

I don't want this topic to die because it's important. I think we knifemakers are getting mixed messages.Mostly from a handfull of people who keep pushing there opinion on others. I'd like to here from the masses as I feel that some of the guys on this forum thrive on pessimism.
some time ago I started a thread on To laser cut or not! and the common response was it's no big deal.

After reading A.G.Russell's thread Im getting an entirely different set of opinions .

I recently split my knives into two categories Mid tech and Custom.
The reason I did that is because I felt it necessary to build more knives to supply more demand. I wish I could take care of every one who wanted to buy a knife however that is not possable doing them completely by hand.I had a decision to make.Do I get SOME models laser cut or CNC'd to help speed up and hopefully supply some of the demand in a somewhat timely manner or do I continue to piss people off who call and try to purchase a knife only to be turned down ?
I opted to have a new line of knives and call them mid techs I still do everything buy hand eccept the profiles and heat treat. No compromise on quality here .Plus I still do 50-60% of my knives totally custom.

I did this only after asking for thoughts views and opinions 99% of which were posative.



So what is it ?Whats your views ?

 

[Marcel J.B. Morin]

Ken:
I am still a fledgling knifemaker, but I have been collecting knives for many years. I personally don't care how the blades are cut or who does the heattreat. I leave it to the maker's discretion to make those decisions. I just like to know that the maker had a fairly large part in the manufacture of the particular knife I am ordering. I am 55 years old and have been in business for 25 years. I have seen a lot of changes in how things are done in the last 10 or 15 years and personally I have found that a lot of it has been for the better. Just my opinion.

Marcel

 

[kile]

I personally dont care if a knifemaker uses cnc or laser cutting, as long as the maker tells the customer how it is made if they ask that is all that matters. I think if you wanted to have all of your parts pre cut, that would be fine, if someone has a problem with that they can either not buy a knife from you, or request that you profile their blade by hand, and you can charge them more for the extra time it takes you. Make knives the way you want to make them

 

[Drummer]

Ken,

As a custom knife buyer, I am looking for the maker to build the best quality knife that they can. I don't buy many custom knives, but I use the ones I get. The reason I buy custom knives is because of increased performance and attention to detail. Personally, I don't care how a maker goes about building a knife. If having the blade blanks laser cut will allow the maker to increase production without hurting performance, then it's fine with me.

If a potential buyer has a problem with it, then the maker can profile one for that client.

David

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Personally I have no problem with laser cutting, using a CNC machine or sending your knife out for heat treating, as long as the customer knows that is what is being done. Many makers are backlogged to the point of having to stop taking orders and these things can aid in making things go faster.

If I want to buy a knife that is totally done by hand and want it from a very popular maker then I am going to have to be willing to wait the many years this may take. This is something that in some cases I am willing to do. In others I want the knife sooner and do not find the the aids you mentioned to be something I even think about.

What I would not accept would be someone else doing a lot of the work on the knife. A helper profiling a blade or shaping a handle would be OK by me, but that is about it.

I do not buy knives thinking of their possible value to collectors in the future. Some think that a sole authorship totally handmade knife makes them worth more to others. This is something I can not comment on. What would be important to me is that the knife was made by the person that's name went on it, not whether he used some aids in helping him make the knife.

When making a fixed blade knife a CNC machine can do just about everthing that needs to be done to make the whole knife. Except for polishing, sharpening and putting on the handle, the CNC machine can do everything else. This I would not consider to be a custom or handmade knife, but if the CNC machine was used only to profile the blade and the maker still did the grinding, this would be OK with me.

 

[GigOne]

Ken,

I have several of your "custom" knives. Have yet to handle any of your "Mid-Tech's." Send me at least one "Mid-Tech" to try out so that I can compare ! lol

Don't rely on what "a few" hear say. You've been doing fine with your own train of thought so far !

 

[Gus Kalanzis]

Hi Ken,
When I asked you a couple or three of years ago, you explained what was going on and were nothing short of a gentleman with your explaination to me. So it is hard to understand why people have legit reasons for getting upset. Maybe it is those shirts.

I still say no big deal. If a maker is going to have several methods, then by a differing mark, or distinct style the differences should be made clear.

There are times, especially on more expensive stuff, when I seek the purest form of sole authorship from someone I know that can pull it off. Like Brian stated in another thread I expect to pay for the work and I enjoy owning that type of knife. There is nothing like having a knife made for you, getting blown away by it and making a friend or cementing a friendship during the process. Those folks that do it all, never cease to amaze me.

If a maker wants to use any tools or machinery it does not matter to me, as long as the quality does not suffer and they are happy with their work and continue to grow. If some of the work is farmed out I would want the maker to spell it out for me.

There are many excellent makers out there; some do it all some don't.
Like Blues said, I am glad there are differences. The only problem is that all those differences makes my decisions harder.

I do have to admit that if faced with a choice between two of the same knives of exact equal quality and price (hypothetically here) one made from CNC'ed parts and the other by handmade parts I would choose the handmade one. Dewey Furgeson wrote a book and price guide many years ago titled The Romance Of Knife Collecting . Maybe that decision has something to do with the romance (yuk did I say that) of Custom Knife collecting.

mush head moderator.

 

[db]

I say make your knives the way you want too, useing the tools you want too. Be upfront about it and proud of your work. How can anyone have a problem with that?

 

[Fire Horse]

To me it's ok if the maker identify it up front, the quality is still there, the price is reflected for the difference process. The collectors can still get the custom pieces. The users can get the knives more readily & hopefully they would be priced accordingly. The maker should have some options to fill the demands for his knives.

 

[rdangerer]

Ken, your decision to split production into two categories is sensible in my view. And given that the pricing is commensurate between the two categories, a good solution to your particular dilemma.

Others have done this as well... James Piorek comes to mind. Steve Mullin.

When Les Robertson does a Vanguard knife, the way he can get those to market at those prices is to have the blades laser or water blanked for the maker... bigger steel buys and that bit of automation. And a "blanked" blade is what, 10% of the total work? On a folder, ya still gotta drill and ream the pivot hole, multi-step/grit grind the blade, heat treat, etch logo, etc.

Also, on heat treating, what I really want on a user blade is a good heat treat. I have one folder by a big name maker, and the heat treat is not up to par ... the ATS-34 doesn't hold an edge like it should. Most of his work goes out for heat treat, except when he is making a batch for a show and is in a hurry, then he heat treats the blades in his shop. How do I know that? He said so in his book. Hint hint . Well, I bought from him at a show. Guess which one I got. That kinda pisses me off. So there you have a "custom, in-house" heat treat that is sub-par. On a $500 knife that is going to be used, that is a real bummer.

One guy sold me a neck knife, told me "it's BG-42". I just happened to test it and about 4 other knives at work on a Texas Nuke x-ray source materials identification tester, and he used 440C. And I'm 99.9% certain of it. The fingerprint was ID'd precisely, and matched up to my tables on alloy compositions. How many 440 knives are floating around out there, sold as higher end stuff? Makes you wonder. Iit didn't have any Vanadium and had 17%+ chrome... busted. Probably a "scrap" piece of 440 laying around... or maybe just an honest mistake and sloppy materials handling in his shop. I'll never know, will I?

Personally, I want a high quality fit/finish knife, and while I haven't had the opportunity to handle any of your work yet, guys like Greg Lightfoot do precision finish/fitting work but on a lot of blanked parts (scales, liners, blade, bolsters), and charge plenty, but the final fit/finish/action is good and that's what I want. And I'm guessing Greg has plenty of finish work even with blanked parts.

But it limits what he can do, as he gets a $150 or more extra for a customized model ("hey, make me your Suppressor model but in longer 3-3/4" blade"). That seems high on top of his existing prices, but that's his perogative, and mine to decline paying that premium if I don't want it that badly.

I think honesty and disclosure, on your web page, or when asked specifically, is such a simple and "right" answer that it is fairly self evident. Apparently the problems in the Guild came from makers not being forthright about having helpers and exactly what work the helpers were doing in the shop in the name of the maker.

If people want "sole authorship" and want to pay for that, dandy.

Anyway, Ken, I think you have found a good solution and it is reasonable and balanced and meets several objectives. You should stick with it IMHO.

 

[KenOnion]

Thanks for the support guys,There are alot of us makers who use alot of different methods to make knives.sometimes we forge and sometimes we don't sometimes we make full tangs and sometimes we use stick or rabett tangs ,sometimes fixed sometimes folders.were not so easly put in a box with a type written on it.Part of the beauty of bieng a knife maker is that we get to dream up all kinds of things and then in the morning we get to bring them to life.Thats what I love. People should buy what they like,roll it arround in your hands,study the lines check for fit and finnish,ask questions,and don't shop for knives without first knowing what to look for. Ask for sugestions befor you go to a show from someone who should know.And then buy what suits your needs.

Don't think just because its handmade its quality theres alot of crap out there,nor because it was built with laser cut parts its crap. There are alot of great knives out there that utilize pre cut parts.and vice versa

Just my thoughts sorry for the ramblings

 

[Chiro75]

In my line of work, there are a good many people who walk through the door and try to piss on you for any number of things. The best way to deal with them is to tell them to never come back, and when they say "I'm gonna tell all my friends about you..." then you say "Good...I don't want to have anything to do with them, either". As of late, the overall tone of Bladeforums is 90% negative. Luckily this is not a true representation of the knife-buying public, thank goodness. If you lose a customer or two to people who think they know how knives should be made better than you do, then smile and say good riddance to them because they will never be happy about anything, and trying to cater to them is a huge watse of time and energy. Just me 2 cents! And, BTW, I have had nothing but satisfied customers on Bladeforums for the few knives I've sold, and I highly doubt the fact that I do everything with files and crude tools gets me any better rep than your techniques do for you. Good luck!

 

[redvenom]

Speaking as a user of knives, I have no problem with how the knives were profiled (with laser, water, hand or foot). Like mentioned, as long as the knifemaker still puts a substantial amount of his skill into it, its good enough for me. Collectors may see this differently, though.

Andrew Limsk

 

[tom mayo]

You have sold your soul to the devil!!!!!!!!!!
However, I will still be your friend if you give me some of the money!!

 

[R.W.Clark]

Use a three toed sloth to put them together for all I care, just make sure your up front with your customers.


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[C4]

You have sold your soul to the devil!!!!!!!!!!
However, I will still be your friend if you give me some of the money!!

Tom,

Are you sub-ing out those Swenson kids down the street and selling their parts to Ken as CNC cut parts???




I don't care who does what, as long as the maker is up front about it!!

Michael

 

[bandaidman]

ken,

Nothing wrong with cnc or outsourcing parts when the maker is upfront about it (as you are). I prefer handmade things but that is just my personal preference.

 

[sas]

Ken, one of the clearest signs that you "get it" is that you are here asking for opinions. While new to knives (about a year), I'm not new to collecting. The primary concept is honesty--I frankly don't care how you make your product, but I am completely consumed by how it looks, feels, and functions. "Hand made" can mean good OR bad, it depends on just how good you are. Maybe you are an artist with CNC, maybe you can grind blindfolded--what counts is the quality of the end product.

For instance, I might like your custom knives better than the Mid tech line, for whatever subjective reasons I may have. In that case, I'd pay more for the custom, because I like it more, not (and probably never) just because it was hand made. So for me, "hand made" in itself is not worth a premium. Possibly I represent a minority, but I buy what I like, use it and enjoy it--and really don't lose much sleep over this stuff.

 

[NCBlades]

Ken, I own one of your customs and one of the Mid techs and all I can say is keep up the good work.
michael

 

[Gene]

Ken,
Coming from a maker as popular and famous as you are, I appreciate your honesty and candor. I have been downright shocked at some of the product I've seen coming from very famous makers. I'm also shocked in some of their customers reactions of just shrugging their shoulders and being satisfied with an inferior product. They're accepting it because they're now "in" and they now own a "such and such" or just simply don't want to complain and upset the maker. I chalk it up as the makers being too busy to really keep up with the amount of orders they have.

I know of what I speak because I have purchased product from fellow forumites that have glowingly praised a certain knife on the forums. I'll receive it and find flaws that a blind person couldn't miss and wonder what they were thinking and how could a maker release a knife like this?

That's why I admire a maker like Rob Simonich who finally stops taking orders all together because he's so backordered, he doesn't want to jeopardize his product by getting even more busy.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if it takes sending blades out for heat treating, or even some CNCing, if that maker can still control the process and deliver a quality product, so be it. Maybe it isn't completely HAND MADE but if it is AS GOOD, I don't think most folks will mind. ESPECIALLY if they want one of your models cheaper and without the long wait.