For those who use Balsawood, do you find that the job it does on stropping meets your expectations, are you satisfied with the results? My thinking is this on Balsawood, it is more forgiving, right? Meaning because of the 'give' in balsawood your stropping angles do not have to measure the exact angle coming off the stones. Is this a correct assessment? Thanks...
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I understand the merits of Basswood but...
- Thread starter Rhodies
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The 'give' in balsa is actually what I came to dislike. Used with compound, it creates edge-rounding issues similar to those with leather and other 'forgiving' substrates, and more so if pressure gets a little heavy. It's prone to compressing, denting, gouging, cutting, etc. I also felt the need to completely strip the surface and flatten/smooth it out periodically, as any surface damage left it wavy or bumpy. It's a little more 'needy', in terms of keeping it in good working shape.
Basswood is firmer and generally more durable and less prone to the deformation issues mentioned above. I can use a little more pressure on it, without much penalty in edge-rounding issues, which is helpful with polishing bevels. But it's still 'soft' enough to give the compound some good bite and a solid foothold in the substrate. After I switched to basswood from balsa, I've since never felt any need to look back.
The only time I generally tolerate any 'give' in a strop, is if I'm using it bare, without compound. Bare leather, and stropping on my jeans are examples of that, and the compression of the material doesn't really matter, if it's used without compound.
Basswood is firmer and generally more durable and less prone to the deformation issues mentioned above. I can use a little more pressure on it, without much penalty in edge-rounding issues, which is helpful with polishing bevels. But it's still 'soft' enough to give the compound some good bite and a solid foothold in the substrate. After I switched to basswood from balsa, I've since never felt any need to look back.
The only time I generally tolerate any 'give' in a strop, is if I'm using it bare, without compound. Bare leather, and stropping on my jeans are examples of that, and the compression of the material doesn't really matter, if it's used without compound.
Obsessed with Edges
nails it. Stropping is admittedly complex, lots of views, approaches, and materials, and lots of folks get good results. There's definitely not just one way and I sure wouldn't claim mine is 'the way.' But I'm about in the same place David is, and for similar reasons. I *want* my compound-hosting strop to be solid with no give. If it helps, think of your hard strop with compound almost like it's another stone in your sharpening progression, except you only use edge-trailing strokes on it. The 2 best ways to setup that hard strop to host compound IMHO, are either a plain hardwood block (basswood is one example, you could use other hardwoods), or any hard surface of your choice (glass, hardwood, etc.) covered by some type of dense cloth stretched tight such as denim (like old blue jean cloth), linen, or synthetic linen, where the purpose is to serve as a better compound host and enable the compound to be distributed evenly and abrade metal aggressively. And similar to David, I also still sometimes use a strop with give, usually plain leather on a hard backing (which is a final refining step that adds a little keenness to an already excellent edge), or like improvised stropping materials you use when you have nothing else at hand but need to realign your edge a bit. One other thing worth pointing out, somewhat off-topic to your thread. If you are sharpening super steels and getting sub-optimal results stropping, an idea to consider is try an experiment, go minimalist, and try a stropless approach. Just make sure you are getting a good edge off your stones before you think about stropping. This can actually work quite well with modern PM super steels, and will confirm that you are getting a good edge right off the stones, so that you know your technique on the stones has been good, that your stones are working, and that the problem is not there. Basically: take a super steel blade you're working on, get on your diamond plates, and work it to the point it'll pass all tests in the Sharpness Chart up to the point of shaving arm hair along the length of blade. When you've reached that point, stropping on compound can add further refinement. Until you've reached that point, there may be issues with your edge and focusing on the strop is not the best way to fix those issues, it may not even be possible. Anyway, off topic, but worth considering as a test to see if you are getting adequate edge refinement before you get to the strop. That will only make your stropping process easier, faster, and more successful.
, and the wood doesn't cost that much, try one block of each and see how you like them. There are pro sharpeners around here who prefer balsa, btw. One is 
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Actually.... I like like basswood more. It needs a little more precision and like a stone you CAN raise a burr so be careful, but it's 10x faster and yields a much keener and sharper edge.
I recommend balsa if you want that soft feel of leather but on a slightly harder surface... though you still get rounding from substrate compression it's less than leather .The balsa will also make the compound cut closer to it's grit rating (like most wood substrates) where leather will make the compound cut finer.
P.S. also be aware there are several hardness/densities of balsa.
I recommend balsa if you want that soft feel of leather but on a slightly harder surface... though you still get rounding from substrate compression it's less than leather .The balsa will also make the compound cut closer to it's grit rating (like most wood substrates) where leather will make the compound cut finer.
P.S. also be aware there are several hardness/densities of balsa.
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I will argue that wood is not really a strop. It does provide a cheap and disposable "effectively high grit" hone. However, just like edge trailing strokes on a stone, if you don't have some wobble in your angle, it will consistently form a foil-burr. This is why straight razor honers only use balsa in the edge leading direction.
Interestingly, the loose wood fibers on the surface can produce enough "resiliency" to micro-convex the bevel. This is why you shouldn't sand the wood to too high of a grit (if you actually want to simulate a strop).
If I was going to make another balsa strop, I would glue a thin piece of balsa to an aluminum plate and then lap the balsa flat with sandpaper on a granite block.
Interestingly, the loose wood fibers on the surface can produce enough "resiliency" to micro-convex the bevel. This is why you shouldn't sand the wood to too high of a grit (if you actually want to simulate a strop).
If I was going to make another balsa strop, I would glue a thin piece of balsa to an aluminum plate and then lap the balsa flat with sandpaper on a granite block.
Interesting, so what IS a strop? I mean, what do you see as the essential characteristics of a strop?
Did you mean, "..if you have some wobble in your angle?"
So I'm dying to know Todd, after reading your interesting blog series on stropping and related. What do you see as the ideal stropping material for general purpose knives with modern PM steels that have 4% or higher vanadium carbide content? Both the base material, and any compound or abrasive? It's a subject of great interest around here to us sharpening knerds.
Did you mean, "..if you have some wobble in your angle?"
So I'm dying to know Todd, after reading your interesting blog series on stropping and related. What do you see as the ideal stropping material for general purpose knives with modern PM steels that have 4% or higher vanadium carbide content? Both the base material, and any compound or abrasive? It's a subject of great interest around here to us sharpening knerds.
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Interesting, so what IS a strop? I mean, what do you see as the essential characteristics of a strop?
Did you mean, "..if you have some wobble in your angle?"
So I'm dying to know Todd, after reading your interesting blog series on stropping and related. What do you see as the ideal stropping material for general purpose knives with modern PM steels that have 4% or higher vanadium carbide content? Both the base material, and any compound or abrasive? It's a subject of great interest around here to us sharpening knerds.
'In my opinion' the purpose of stropping is to micro-convex the apex to improve keenness. It's not a secret that I believe leather with 0.25 micron diamond produces the keenest apex. By this definition, wood can be a strop if it has loose fibers on the surface (not plastered down with stropping compound).
A keen edge may not be your goal - you may want to form a small burr and then break it off to produce an edge with some draw-cutting aggression. For example, you could make a small burr with edge-trailing strokes on a piece of wood treated with metal polish, then cut into the wood to fold the burr over, then strop on clean leather to break the burr off (they generally break rather than straighten).
Edge-trailing strokes result in foil burrs when there is NO wobble. For example, straight razors (where the angle is fixed) always form foil-burrs with edge trailing strokes. If you wobble to a higher angle you can cut off the burr.
If the surface of one's leather strop is softer than hard balsa, you don't have a good quality strop. You just have a piece of leather being called a strop. If the leather has been properly processed prior to use, its surface will be much harder than balsa wood. You shouldn't be able to dent that leather surface with moderate pressure from a thumbnail. If you can, again, all you have is a piece of leather, not a strop. Just because it is sold as a strop, or sold by a company that calls itself a strop company, doesn't mean it's a good one.
Stitchawl
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Thanks
So Stitch, you've posted about this in bits and pieces in other threads, but I don't remember your whole take on things. Do you see the value in using something like a hardwood block with compound as a high grit hone (edge-trailing), followed by a final stropping on clean, hard-backed, quality leather? This is actually what I've been trying lately. The leather step is optional and don't always do it, but when I do I get a noticeable improvement (though it's a small increase) in keenness. Even with super steels, which slightly surprised me.
The short answer is; yes, I see great value in using a hardwood block with compound as a high grit hone (edge-trailing), followed by a final stropping on clean, hard-backed, quality leather...
BUT.......
Not just 'clean, hard-backed quality leather.' The 'correct' leather needs to be 'properly processed' in order to turn it into a 'high quality strop.' This means starting with vegetable-tanned cowhide (not Chrome tanned or Oil tanned) preferably from the shoulder or back of the hide rather than the belly. The shoulder leather is much more dense to begin with. The belly leather tends to be softer. If you can buy horsehide, you want cuts from the 'shell' section or 'butt' section of the hide. These are the most dense areas on horsehide. Horsehide contains more natural silicates than cowhide, so for the final strop, you will need 10-15 strokes per side on cowhide, but only 8-13 strokes on horsehide. Saving yourself those two-three strokes might cost you an extra $15 buying the hide. Or even more if you buy some exotic leather like kangaroo. Many exotics contain more silicates than cowhide, but this still translates only to a saving of a few strokes when stropping. There is no magic in exotic leathers. They do, however, give you bragging rights.
Turning ordinary cowhide into a strop. - How to...
Look at the color of the cowhide... remember that color... then run the leather under water, both sides, just for 3-5 seconds, getting it wet. Look at the color now. Now set it aside laying flat for an hour or two... watch the color as it dries. When the color 'starts' to come back to the original it's ready to work on. The leather will have the consistency of modeling clay! (This is called 'casing' the leather.)
Take a smooth flat board, or use your kitchen counter top, and a heavy rolling pin and roll that leather from end to end. Press down hard on the leather and roll it, compressing it, and roll it evenly back and forth for 20 minutes or longer. The longer the better final result for a bare leather strop. Really press down hard! Now let dry laying flat. After a day or two drying, rub in a few pea-sized gobs of shoe cream to revitalize the leather. Just two PEA SIZED gobs of the stuff. You don't want to soften the leather, just feed it. That's it. Thats all it takes to turn leather into a high quality strop. It's not difficult. NOTE: If you plan to use this strop bare (without compound,) the longer you roll it the more effective it will be. Rolling and pressing the leather causes the natural silicates to rise to the surface of the hide. It's those extra-fine grits that do the final edge polishing on a well-sharpened blade.
As a final note, when used with compounds, leather will not give any better result than any other substrate simply because its leather. No sense spending extra money on leather, then covering up its attributes (those silicates.) Any dense, flat medium will work just as well, even a free paint stirring stick or an off-cut of wood out of the scrap bin at the home center. Personally, I like a piece of MDF board. However, if you've bought a 12"x12" square of leather, you can cut 3-4 good sized strops from it (compress before you cut,) an make 2-3 into strops to use with compound, reserving one to be used bare for those final 8-10 strokes. Compounds stick to leather very, very well, and a strop like this will last a lifetime.
Strops aren't magic. They are simply the last steps in the sharpening process (if you want that sort of finished edge.) When I use strops with compounds, I probably don't take more than 20-30 strokes per side. When I use a bare strop as the final step, I take about 8-10 strokes per side. Never any more. That seems to do the trick to give me the type of edge I want.
Stitchawl
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OK. So it seems fair to say a good number of folks on this thread at least are supportive of the idea of that a hardwood strop, with compound, can be an effective type of high-grit hone. The advantage being it doesn't remove as much metal as a stone would, and runs less risk of horking your edge because less aggressive, but still has enough 'bite' to abrade and refine your edge. In my mind, the hard strop is ideally what you want for this purpose,
Jason B.
gives a great summary of why.
So now, comparing balsa to leather (which we'll go with Stitch's definition: leather that has been processed to be really firm). Assume we're using the highest quality balsa we can find, AND we're using 'properly processed hard leather.' Does balsa offer any sharpening advantage compared to leather?
Jason B.
gives a great summary of why. So now, comparing balsa to leather (which we'll go with Stitch's definition: leather that has been processed to be really firm). Assume we're using the highest quality balsa we can find, AND we're using 'properly processed hard leather.' Does balsa offer any sharpening advantage compared to leather?
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The balsa allows the compound to cut closer to its actual abrasive size and with leather the compound will act finer providing a better polish. When I was going for perfect mirror edges some years ago I would always finish with good hard horse leather coated in 1 micron diamond. Always made for a near perfect wet glossy look.
From my point of view... I agree with Jason. There is no real advantage to using compound on leather. However, if you are a fan of convex edges, a leather hanging strop will work better than a wooden one. There is especially NO advantage to putting compound on high quality horsehide. Horsehide's (or any of the exotic leathers) only advantage is that it is higher in natural silicates than cow hide, so covering them up is like painting a Stradivarius.
Stitchawl