Identififying "High carbon steel"

C

camcam2016

Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
29
Hey im curious if anyone can tell me what high carbon steel usually is that isnt specified. What makes me bring this up is on a top site there is 1045 up to 1095 and then a specific spot for high carbon knives that has 121 matches, that dont fit into the 1045-1095 criteria. I recently bought a rough rider that said high carbon steel, on the site it was the only one that didnt say 440a. In the description it said 440 formulation high carbon steel so i emailed them and they said they think it is 440a with a higher than normal carbon content. If anyone is interested in looking at the knife its on a site pertaining to the mountains for 12.99 and is the only g10 trapper. So i guess 2 questions. 1 what do yall think about 440 with a higher carbon content, doesnt make sense to me. Seems like it wouldnt be 440a then. And 2, What does it usually mean when they just put high carbon steel. Alot of the boker plus line does this
 
With 440 A - C steels, there are minimal and maximal ranges of carbon in each grade. With 440A, the carbon range is .65 - .75, 440B is .75 - .95, 440C is .95 - 1.20. My guess is that they are shooting for their 440A to be in the upper end of those ranges, while still being classed as 440A and not 440B.

Don't worry about it.
 
Any steel with carbon content above 0.8% considered "high carbon" but normally when people said high carbon they mostly refer to low alloy carbon steel like 1084, 1095, O1 etc.
 
Depends on where you look, I suppose. I have seen sources that define high-carbon steels as being over 0.6% carbon, so any 440A-C steel would qualify for that.

It is most likely that the web page marketing copy is just vague. Rough Riders are 440A. Retail web pages are not normally written by engineers or lawyers. I have found totally inaccurate product descriptions on some major retailer web sites, so don't think you are guaranteed a scientifically correct description of a $12 imported product.
 
At the end of the day its a $13 dollar knife. I wouldn't over analyze it.

there is no exact steel or rule that a manufacturer has to follow to put "High Carbon" or "Surgical Stainless"

420 HC is called "High carbon" but only has 0.45 carbon.

using deductive reasoning,

I don't expect anything special on the rough rider.

its the heat treatment that's important thing anyway, How good can that be with the quota they have to make at the factory for a knife that retails 13 dollars?
 
Last edited:
It depends on the part of the steel industry you are working with ! What might be high carbon in one industry may be low carbon in another.
For knives we need about .40 C minimum. For those who work with old scythes a ,40 C can be sharpened with a little hammer to
thin and work harden the blade or a stone.
.60 C is about minimum for just stoning .
at about .75 we get better performance and easier HT.
.75-100 .we start to get serious about performance
Above 1.00 C is in the premium blade area.
All this is for plain carbon and adding other elements changes things around especially for stainless steel !
 
I wasnt just curious about the rough rider that was just an example. A lot of knives say carbon steel, like i said as an example the boker plus line. And thats it no other designation besides carbon steel. That could be 50 different steels. Also the site the info was on is the manufacturer of the knife (the rough rider) and out of 500 rough rider listings this is the only one that says carbon. I dont expect top notch carbon steel in a 13$ knife never said i did, just had never herd of 440 high carbon steel before. To me to designate a knife as carbon steel it should have to actually be carbon steel, instead of all the confusion of just putting high carbon or 440 "formula" high carbon steel.

Here is an excerpt from the knife being sold that maybe can shed light on how confusing this is.

The Black G-10 Bow Trapper by Rough Rider has titanium coated carbon steel blades and makes for a great everyday carry pocket knife.

440 formula high carbon steel blades, with titanium coating to resist rust. Black G-10 handles. Brass liners. Brushed nickel silver shields, pins and ringed, pinched bolsters. Braided cord lanyard with nickel silver bead accent. 3" clip point and spey blades. Blade thicknesses: 1/16". 4-1/8” closed.
 
Sorry for double post but i want to emphasize im just using the rough rider as an example. Its aggirvating because i like to make my dollars go as far as possible. So lets say i want a boker plus knife, really like the knife but it says carbon steel or high carbon steel. And i like carbon steel for its price to performance ratio but based on the description that tells me nothing. I could be getting 1085 1075 etc.. or i could be getting 440a they just decided to call carbon steel. Just as many knives that state there exact steel on the big sites, state just carbon steel or high carbon steel.
 
Its all "carbon steel" because steel is an alloy of Iron and carbon, names are just names, I wouldn't over analysis it because that's not going to tell you everything anyway, just because they're using a certain steel doesn't mean they are maximizing the performance with it at that price point.


Have you ever made a cake? Whats more important the ingredients or the preparation to the finished product? Why do people pay more for one cake over another when they both have the same ingredients?


Its counter intuitive but you have to spend more to make your dollars go further.


You can't get a 4 Michelin star meal from a fast food window.
 
camcam2016 said:
...

To me to designate a knife as carbon steel it should have to actually be carbon steel, instead of all the confusion of just putting high carbon or 440 "formula" high carbon steel.

....
Click to expand...

Well, if you don't like the description, you can vote with your wallet. We really can't compel any manufacturer to adhere to what we think should be the standard nomenclature.

As implied in a couple of previous posts, you can get really specific with nomenclature of steels with higher priced offerings(well, most of the time anyway).
 
I sort of get what your saying. Spend 200 on a knife you can resell for 175 or what u paid instead of buying 200$ in budget knives you cant sell for half there price. I just look for budget knives that are still good. For example mora has great carbon steel 10$ knife, opinel great sandvik 12$ knife i could go on. That answers my question though, i guess the answer is there is no defenition it is an advertising gimmick. Thank you for all your help
 
camcam2016 said:
I sort of get what your saying. Spend 200 on a knife you can resell for 175 or what u paid instead of buying 200$ in budget knives you cant sell for half there price. I just look for budget knives that are still good. For example mora has great carbon steel 10$ knife, opinel great sandvik 12$ knife i could go on. That answers my question though, i guess the answer is there is no defenition it is an advertising gimmick. Thank you for all your help
Click to expand...

Sure, but don't expect the manufacturers of low priced knives to be really specific in naming their steels.
 
camcam2016 said:
I sort of get what your saying. Spend 200 on a knife you can resell for 175 or what u paid instead of buying 200$ in budget knives you cant sell for half there price. I just look for budget knives that are still good. For example mora has great carbon steel 10$ knife, opinel great sandvik 12$ knife i could go on. That answers my question though, i guess the answer is there is no defenition it is an advertising gimmick. Thank you for all your help
Click to expand...

hahaha that's not what I said.

If that's what YOU think then that's fine.

Take care
 
If you are talking about this one: RR1570, "ROUGH RIDER TRAPPER 4.125” WITH BLACK G-10 HANDLES AND TITANIUM COATED CARBON STEEL PLAIN EDGE BLADES" - it is not 440, nor stainless. It is carbon steel. The description in their ad copy is wrong.

"440 formula high carbon steel blades, with titanium coating to resist rust." 440 does not need titanium coating to resist rust.

If you have one, sharpen up the edge nice and shiny. Then dip it into some vinegar about half way and leave it there for about 20 minutes. If the part of the edge you dipped into the vinegar has turned gray, then it's carbon steel (and not stainless).
 
jc57 said:
If you are talking about this one: RR1570, "ROUGH RIDER TRAPPER 4.125” WITH BLACK G-10 HANDLES AND TITANIUM COATED CARBON STEEL PLAIN EDGE BLADES" - it is not 440, nor stainless. It is carbon steel. The description in their ad copy is wrong.

"440 formula high carbon steel blades, with titanium coating to resist rust." 440 does not need titanium coating to resist rust.

If you have one, sharpen up the edge nice and shiny. Then dip it into some vinegar about half way and leave it there for about 20 minutes. If the part of the edge you dipped into the vinegar has turned gray, then it's carbon steel (and not stainless).
Click to expand...

He's not wanting to find out what kind of steel he's got. He is complaining about the manufacturers' names for their steels.
 
"High carbon" often means the same as:

Genuine
Authentic
Superior
Surgical
Tactical
Combat
Good
Better
Best
Tough
Amazing
Spectacular
Hard
Holds an edge
Gee Wiz!
WOW!

That is, it sounds vaguely positive but doesn't mean anything in particular.

As noted, it is supposed to mean at least .60% carbon.
 
DeadboxHero said:
hahaha that's not what I said.

If that's what YOU think then that's fine.

Take care
Click to expand...

I didnt say thats what you said. By "i sort of get what your saying" is the same thing as saying "i think i know what your saying"

Anyways yes to the guy that said im complaining about defenitions and dont care about the steel in any particular knife. For example it says carbon, and if i check it with vinegar i still dont know what carbon it is. I think knife manufacturers should post the exact steel and not such a broad term. At the beginning of this i was asking if high carbon ment something other than mystery carbon steel. The answer is no theres no way to tell is what ive gathered so far. Thank you to all those who posted with information.
 
Thank you that answered my question. The other day i saw a boker on a popular knife site that i believe has headquarters in the name, it was sort of expensive over 100$ and said "high carbon steel" i cant stand that. Say i did like the knife, i wouldnt buy it bc i dont know whats its made of. They do this with expensive knives as well not just the 10-20$ ones.
 
Thomas Linton said:
"High carbon" ... is supposed to mean at least .60% carbon.
Click to expand...

Hopefully so, at least in the knife and edged tool world. In general, steels with about .45 or more are referred to as high carbon, or at least medium-to-high. "High carbon" (HC) railroad spikes are probably lucky to have .30 carbon. I have some high carbon #2 yellow pencils. They are easy to resharpen but don't hold a point.

I saw some $4 cane machetes at an aggie store the other day. Probably 55 carbon steel - like it was cut out of the lids of a 55 gallon drum. But I still want to try one. Maybe they threw some cast iron in with the scrap metal melt and got the carbon and silicon levels up a bit. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top