If you have a good machete, what's the point of having a large knife?

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maximus83

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Let's say that you have a proven mid-size, all purpose machete (anywhere from 12" to 18") that has a nice convexed edge, and can serve as a great wood chopper as well as clearing brush, and can also handle food prep and game processing tasks. I personally have a 14" Condor Golok (the one with the 0.25" thick blade) to serve for this purpose.

When you have this kind of setup, do you really gain anything significant by also having a large 9" to 10" chopping knife, like one of the Bussekin breed, or an ESEE Junglas? Does the big chopper knife really add any signficant capability to your knife arsenal, that you would not already have by just using your machete plus your small or mid-sized knives?

Don't misunderstand: I have no problem with owning big chopper knives. Love them, own a Junglas myself. I'm just trying to figure out if a well honed, quality machete can essentially replace the role of a large chopper knife, if you need it to. In my limited experimentation with my new Golok, seems like it does all the heavy work as well as my Junglas or better in some cases (the Golok has a thicker blade, 0.25" vs .187", and also the Golok has a longer blade). And as for lighter cutting tasks that the Junglas is capable of doing, food prep and etc., I find most of those I can do easier with my small knives anyway. So really, apart from just having fun and enjoying the use of my Junglas, I'm wondering if I really have any purpose for keeping it. It's fun, but it's also a very expensive toy if I can replace everything that it does with a $29.99 Condor machete.

Here's a related quote by Jeff Randall (of Randall's Adventures and Training):
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-knives/make-mine-a-machete/
"As for survival skills, a machete will do as well, if not better, in most cases than the more obtuse geometry found on both the axe and large knife. Granted, machetes may not be the best tool for every job, but overall they are at the top of the list for performance in many different latitudes of survival."


And then here's a common type of response that is made to Jeff's argument (just showing both sides of the issue). The following came from a thread on this same subject at Arfcom:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=4&t=332814
"Actually, a big (10-12") thick knife will often chop much better than a thin and relatively light machete. Machetes are good for clearing light, leafy brush but not that good for chopping."


Would be interested to hear the experiences of others who have used both.
 
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the rule of thumb when it comes to axes is generally for every 1/2lb in the head, it can be substituted by 2in on the haft. so if you think of it in that context, the only reason to have a big blade would be for the mid sized (7"-10") heavy weight choppers. basically as cleavers. otherwise I have no idea why a decent machete would do all the same work. except for usage as a weighted object? (hammering, paperweight, impromptu tent stake?)
 
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most people who live in thick jungles/swamps carry a machete. for lots of reasons....mainly cost vs. usefulness. it's pretty hard to beat a machete. it's almost like a combination of a large knife and an axe. doesn't do either of those tools tasks, they were designed for, real well.......... but it can accomplish both tools tasks.

on that note, same theory applies to a big chopping knife. can handle what a hatchet and a mid size knife can do but you only have to carry one tool instead of two. can't do tasks as well as those tools, but can do them. so it's a compromise, imho. ironically big brand name quality choppers cost big bucks. whereas quality machetes are cheap. somehow the makers and us buyers forgot about value to ability formula.:)

other may substitute their big chopper for their machete, but i don't. maybe i'm the weird one? i find a machete does what i use it for better than a big chopper, and vice versa. every one is different though.
 
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Well I have to disagree with Jeff on the obtuse edge thing. I wonder what kind of axes he's using and what he's cutting with them. I tried using a tram to limb a tree and it came away with a nickel sized ding in the blade. About the same size as the fatwood impregnated branch I was cutting off. :D My hawk sailed right through it. So the type of chopper you choose has to do more with the skill of the user and what the user is cutting with said tool. There's always 3 parts to the system; the thing being cut, the geometry of the tool itself, and the users skill with the tool.

All that being said I'll give you my 2 cents on the matter. A chopper for heavy work and a small knife/pocket knife for everything else. Everything else people carry they carry because they like them and not because they're useful beyond the first set of tools.
 
You can't compare a machete and an axe-they are two very different tools. If you try to take any kind of machete to serious hardwoods, you might as well drive into a brick wall. You might damage something but it's not going to look pretty and you aren't going to get very far.

I find it's alot less the stock of the blade than it is the angle of the grind, and a machete's grind isn't necessarily more acute than a large knife.

As far as performance... there's alot of variables. I wrote a detailed post about my experiences a while back, going to use the search function to try and find it.
 
I agree that a machete does not replace an axe, although I do find it more useful overall in my (admittedly limited) experience. One way to get around hardwoods would be to simply bring along a foldable saw with the machete, which will take care of the hardwoods. Not a perfect alternative, but something to consider.
 
I have had very good results from my machetes.
I have cleared a lot of brush and small trees(including hardwoods up to 4") with my machetes. No problem doing it. Never had a breakage or even a chip.
The trees come right down with a few swings. 4" hardwoods take a bit more work. Limbs come right off easily.
I do have to re-sharpen now and then.

I have never seen any cutting job that I would "Have to do" in the field for survival or camping that I couldn't do with a machete, except the very small things that i would do with my folder or small blade.
I don't need to take down any trees that I can't take down with my machete.
My machete IS my large knife. I think machetes are freakin' amazing. They can do so much.
 
I have to judge and try to predict what tasks my blades will have to do, for each outing. I hike and backpack, or I'm working in the yard. Here in KY, I will need to chop wood, not clear a path. So, I can get by with either the Junglas, or a 12" thicker machete. A longer thinner machete is great for clearing light vegetation, thorny bushes, or to reach more distance. But, for chopping wood, I fear edge damage or failure. The tip speed is so much faster with an 18" or longer machete. So much that I've got a small crack in my micarta scales on my ESEE Light Machete, from chopping wood. I think I hit it straight on, it bounced off, and the energy transfered into the handle.
I prefer shorter and thicker machetes for Kentucky, forests, and wood processing. Jungles are different, you may need a long thin machete, and another wood chopping tool, I've never been, so I have no experience there.
I know I wouldn't need your Golok and the Junglas. A small knife and either one of those would suffice, for me. Actually, I don't think the Junglas is that much of a chopper. My 12" Ontario machete will out-chop it by a large margin, I bet you the Condor Golok will as well.
 
Machetes are the swiss army knives of choppers. They don't excel at any one particular thing, per se, but are unparalleled in their versatility. For instance, an axe does much better than a machete for dedicated felling or splitting tasks...but how well does it clear brush or brambles? ;) I have done just about everything with a machete that I could with an axe or knife (large OR small) and while the other tools might have been able to do individual tasks better than the machete, none of those tools could have performed ALL of the tasks that the machete did. I have used all sorts of machetes on dense, thick woods and had plenty of success, and I've yet to experience any significant edge damage when chopping hard targets even when using machetes with very thin edge geometry.

As far as overall uses and learning curves go, I see the axe as being the most difficult for most folks to get the hang of (har har) but there's no manual edged tool better for dedicated felling and splitting tasks, and it can be pressed into other work if you have the necessary skill. The machete is the most versatile of the chopping tools and can perform nearly any woods task with at least acceptable results. It is easier for many to get results from compared to an axe, but it still has a learning curve and gaining true mastery of the tool still takes intense familiarity and practice. The chopping knife is the most accesible to the average individual, but does far fewer tasks. In knife-like tasks an axe can actually work better than a very large chopping knife, and it does not split as well as an axe or chop as well as a machete. But they pack a punch for their blade length due to increased thickness (the least efficient place to add mass to the blade, though) which makes them easy to pack.
 
FortyTwo, a couple of machete questions:

* Which machete type/style do you find to be the best "general purpose"? I got a Condor 14" Golok, thinking to use it that way. I used longer machetes as a kid for things like walking bean fields (to get weeds--today they've automated this and use chemicals, nobody walks beans anymore), and clearing nettles from our pasture. But for utilitarian usage, I think a shorter, thicker bladed machete makes a bit more sense.

* What kind of edge do you find works best on your GP machetes? Are we talking a convexed edge?
 
maximus83 said:
FortyTwo, a couple of machete questions:

* Which machete type/style do you find to be the best "general purpose"? I got a Condor 14" Golok, thinking to use it that way. I used longer machetes as a kid for things like walking bean fields (to get weeds--today they've automated this and use chemicals, nobody walks beans anymore), and clearing nettles from our pasture. But for utilitarian usage, I think a shorter, thicker bladed machete makes a bit more sense.

* What kind of edge do you find works best on your GP machetes? Are we talking a convexed edge?
Click to expand...

1) I find that between a 14"-18" machete with profile close to the typical "Latin" or "Bush" pattern (just the typical machete shape) is the most generally applicable, which is why they're the most common variety. The best machete for general use in your area for general use is going to likely deviate a little from that, though, depending on the range of tasks and targets that are most commonly considered as "general" for you. I personally find that I like a 18"-24" blade in my region, and while my 16" Baryonyx has become my go-to machete as of late, the 20" Viking has long been a favorite of mine. Weight-forward, long reach, sharpened clip for hooking grasses, large sweet spot for blasting hard woods. What do you plan on doing with it?

2) I find a thin convex edge of about 30 degrees inclusive works best on most of my machetes (Imacasa, Condor, Martindale, Hansa, Tramontina, Fiddleback, Collins...) but on softer machetes like Cold Steel/Lasher you might want it at about 40 degrees inclusive to prevent rolling. When sharpening in the field I don't bother trying to maintain a true convex and just use a double-sided coarse/fine DMT Diafold for quick touchups.

:)
 
I'm one of the survival instructors for the above quoted company. Jeff is absolutely right. Depending on the environment, a machete plus a smaller knife will do quite a bit of what you're needing to do. I would not carry a Junglas or other chopper + a machete. In my opinion it is a duplication. It is nice to have a smaller knife along with your machete for tasks better suited to a small knife. By smaller I mean ESEE 3 range or so. That is one of the main reasons I've been looking for a 'hard use' folder. Not sure if one exists though.

My preference for length of machete is between 18 and 22 inches. And a $5 machete bought in country will absolutely chop down a tree, if you need it to. Machetes may be thin but they are a lot tougher than they look.
 
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FortyTwo, I live in Washginton state, and my main uses for the machete (or my Junglas, when I take it) are in order: chopping wood, making feather sticks, clearing brush and delimbing (for shooting lanes or camping areas). And I must sadly confess--because I don't like lugging along a shovel--a FEW times I've used my large blades to dig holes (I was too lazy to take the time to cut a digging tool). In a survival situation, I'd probably use the machete/large knife for many other tasks as well, since I wouldn't have the luxury of other tools with me.

Do you think my 14", 0.25" thick Condor, is not really an ideal, all-purpose machete blade then, to replace my Junglas? Should I look at something different, for the kinds of uses I'm looking at?

On the sharpening thing: What is the best way, if I don't have a belt sander (well I have one, but it's the 3" variable type, not really great for knife sharpening), to maintain a convexed edge on a machete?
 
I was kind of stuck on this question a while back as well.

I tend to think of my BK9 as a hatchet with more uses, rather than as a machete or axe. A Chopper is generally run a bit harder than a machete (BK9 is around 58rc, while machetes are generally run in the lower 50's), so the edge lasts longer as well.

I also feel like a Chopper is easier to pack around (just smaller, not necessarily a weight advantage).

My Woods setup up here is generally a Corona saw, BK9 and my mora. I have no need of a long machete for clearing brush around here, and while a 14in Golok would be a sweet chopper and wood splitter, it would be much more of a pain to haul around.

Thats my two cents :).
 
If I may offer my own unschooled opinion on the subject, I see a machete as a 'large knife' in the same way that a compact shortbox pickup is not a five-ton, but it is still a 'truck.' I have very limited experience with machetes (the one I own is a very cheap, low-quality model--not even sure of the manufacturer...) but I can imagine the range and styles greatly vary within the general category and some will be better suited for particular tasks than others...

Gonna be quiet now and let the grown-ups talk... :o
 
maximus83 said:
FortyTwo, I live in Washginton state, and my main uses for the machete (or my Junglas, when I take it) are in order: chopping wood, making feather sticks, clearing brush and delimbing (for shooting lanes or camping areas). And I must sadly confess--because I don't like lugging along a shovel--a FEW times I've used my large blades to dig holes (I was too lazy to take the time to cut a digging tool). In a survival situation, I'd probably use the machete/large knife for many other tasks as well, since I wouldn't have the luxury of other tools with me.

Do you think my 14", 0.25" thick Condor, is not really an ideal, all-purpose machete blade then, to replace my Junglas? Should I look at something different, for the kinds of uses I'm looking at?

On the sharpening thing: What is the best way, if I don't have a belt sander (well I have one, but it's the 3" variable type, not really great for knife sharpening), to maintain a convexed edge on a machete?
Click to expand...

The Golok will do just fine for all of the tasks except the feather sticks, as I find the factory grind a little too thick for that. If you thin it out though... ;)

The BEST way to maintain a convex on a machete is to buy a cheapo 1x30 belt sander from Harbor Freight and some sharpening belts from Lee Valley. They have a wide range of grits but to keep initial investment cost down I'd suggest a couple of 40 grit blue zirconia belts, an 80 grit 3M Trizact belt, and a 40μ (micron) belt. It'll give you all you need for thinning grinds and producing a nicely polished edge. The Trizact belt leaves a very fine finish for such an aggressive belt, which is why the 40μ belt is all you really need for cleanup. Barring the belt sander, a Nicholson "Handy File" will work nicely, but take longer and leave a coarse finish. Don't worry too much about the whole convex thing. Hand sharpening will create a natural slight convex without you having to sweat it.

I think the Golok is a fine replacement for the Junglas. However, you might also look at the Condor 15" Bolo for your tasks, especially if using it occasionally as a shovel is on the list of reqs. Just carry a good file and/or stone with you if you might be doing that!
 
I have been grinding down, and grinding in a full flat grind on my Golok, it pays off in weight and performance in my opinion.

I love that little chopper. It is a very very high value blade. Though I wish the second model didn't have such large holes in the tang under the handle, because I like refining my less expensive blades. those holes, limited the refining I could do on the later productions.
 
FortyTwo, thanks for the tips. I might ping you in email for more general guidance on machete sharpening, belt sander or with a file.

Ron_m80: that's interesting that you went to a FFG grind on a Golok. Do you have the 0.25" thick blade? In your opinion, I'd like to hear specifically how going to a FFG improved performance vs the factory convex grind. Let's say that I decide to give this a try with mine. What's the best way (lacking a belt sander) to convert the factory convex to a v-grind? I do have the following sharpening tools to work with: files (large for rough work, small Nicholson file set for detail work), a large 4" x 10" DMT Coarse/Extra-Coarse diamond stone for heavy profiling work, and a Spyderco Sharpmaker. If I used these tools, would I be able to reprofile that convex edge in a reasonable amount of time to a v-grind, or would it probably take too long without the belt sander?
 
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