Impregnating Wood

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Apr 3, 2007
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By tomorrow, I should have my vacuum pump functioning. What do you find to be the best agent to use for wooden scales. I'm only working on small pieces but I want them to be really tough and use epoxy to bond them to metal. I've been told this is a hard combination to come by. I'll be working with old wood, so drying shouldn't be a factor.
 
I think you'll get more answers in Shop Talk.
moving-van.jpg
 
By tomorrow, I should have my vacuum pump functioning. What do you find to be the best agent to use for wooden scales. I'm only working on small pieces but I want them to be really tough and use epoxy to bond them to metal. I've been told this is a hard combination to come by. I'll be working with old wood, so drying shouldn't be a factor.

I'm going to ask a silly question on top of this..... If you're going to be binding the scale material to the knife using epoxy, why couldn't you use one that has a long curing time (at least two hour), thin with say 2 parts alcohol or lacquer thinner to 1 part blended epoxy, apply vacuum, then place in the refrigerator to slow curing time.

Just a thought..... Should be interesting....

Jim L.
 
As a boatbuilder by trade, I've used quite a few epoxy formulations. I haven't used it to stabilize handle scales yet though. I'm definitely a greenhorn as far as knifemaking and modding are concerned. With that in mind, I'd like to offer a suggestion from a predominantly marine perspective, FWIW.

Like Jim, I would also recommend using a thin epoxy, however I would caution against thinning it more than 10% or so, for two reasons. First (and most importantly) it will interfere with the exotherm, the internally generated heat that initiates the curing process. This can result in a softer finished product that may never cure to the hardness desired for this application. Secondly, the nature of epoxy allows manufacturers to reformulate the mixture to tweak the properties without a net loss in strength. Somewhere, someone makes a blend with the properties you need.

One of my favorite epoxies is Interlux's Epiglass laminating epoxy. It's thin enough to wet out well and it can be thinned 10% to give a consistency almost like water. I would recommend using acetone to thin it, as the acetone will evaporate without leaving a residue and will strip the wood of some of the natural oils that would otherwise interfere with the bond (think teak or even lignum vitae). A good test for epoxy thinners is to wipe them on a piece of glass. If it doesn't evaporate cleanly, don't use it.

Putting it in the fridge is a great idea, that's how a lot of aerospace composites are stored. It will of course increase the viscosity of the resin which will make it harder for it to saturate the wood, so you'll need to play around to find the best compromise. Bear in mind that epoxy cure times are based on an ambient air (and epoxy) temperature of 70-72 degF, so just doing it in the basement will yield a longer pot life. Cooling epoxy down has no significant effects on final strength and hardness.

There are rot restoration epoxies on the market that are formulated to soak into rotted wood to stabilize it. These are typically thin so they'll also saturate the wood that's still intact. Warming the wood helps a lot with saturation, but it increases the exotherm which decreases pot life.

Another issue is blush. That's probably the difficulty you've heard about with using epoxy to stabilize the wood and then to bond the scales on. This is a waxy coating that forms during cure on the epoxy where it's exposed to the air. It will interfere with subsequent bonds, but fortunately it's water soluble. Some water and a scotchbright will clean it right off. Trying to sand it will just melt it and drive it into the epoxy, making the problem worse. In vacuum forming, there is still air inside because you're creating a relative vacuum, not an absolute one. They online tutorials I've seen for stabilizing wood appear to be the same.

For the actual process, I would suggest putting the epoxy and hardener in the fridge overnight, then gently warming the wood all the way through on a sunny windowsill or with a hair dryer (comfortably warm to the touch). When it comes time to bond the scales on, it might be worthwhile to use a product like cab-o-sil, short silica fibers (not chopped strand-that's different) that increase epoxy's value as an adhesive. It will also thicken the glue-line though.
 
My operation is pretty low-tech, very low-tech. My vacuum pump setup is a Mason jar and a hand operated pump that was used for diagnosing car problems. After reading your information and links. I went to Home Depot and bought a quart of Minwax indoor/outdoor spar urethane. I put some small eyescrews in the wood and wired 3/4 in. nuts to them for weight. Three pieces of 10 year old black walnut about an inch thick and a standard construction shim about five in.long in the jar and filled it up with the urethane. At 15 in. of mercury the pine bubbled like an Alka-Seltzer. After 5 hours, there's not much action in the pine, but the walnut is still giving out bubbles.
 
A purely hypothetical exercise here, but what about actually vacuum-drawing the resin through the wood ? I'll explain:

What if you were to cut your scales 1/2" oversize all the way around and use (1/4"?) foam tape to temporarily assemble them (sans tang), as in three-part scales ? If the bottom were sealed as well (foam tape), then the vac pump could be adapted to fit the top (only) opening.

Immerse the outside of the scales in a resin bath and bob's yer uncle....

Yes, no, maybe, dumb idea?
 
I think the problem with foam tape is that it's more porous than the wood, therefore it would draw the resin through the tape not the wood. I built another top that will hold 20 in. of mercury and think if I thin the urethane 10% and increase the vacuum 25% that might do it. After 24 hrs in 15 inches of vacuum, I took the wood out and let it dry for 8 hrs then cut a crossection and all but the most dense part of the walnut was saturated.
 
A purely hypothetical exercise here, but what about actually vacuum-drawing the resin through the wood ? I'll explain:

<< snip >>

Yes, no, maybe, dumb idea?

This sounds similar to a method that (I think was) Ariel Salaverria posted a tutorial about a little while back. He drilled and tapped one end of the block for a fitting, surrounded it in a flexible bag with the resin and basically sucked the resin into the wood by applying vacuum to the fitting. He reported 100% penetration with the wood and resin he was using. You should be able to find the thread via the search function. For that matter, I should be able to. Yep, here it is:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=427501

So no, not a dumb idea at all.

rmd
 
That's exactly what I was thinking of ! Thanks for the link rmd, it's good to know it works. I'm definitely going to try it now....
 
I saw that method, but it doesn't seem like a controlled environment that would be easy to duplicate every time. If you find the exact combination through trial and error, I want to do it again. I've been working with walnut but I think I'll switch to oak because of the availability and uniformity. Once I get consistent results, then I can move on to more exotic materials.
 
I had wondered about using a urethane under vacuum, but put it aside for the problem of air cure. I wonder if this would work for my cedar blocks? :confused:

Jim L.
 
Try the minwax high performance wood hardener instead of the urethane. I use minwax hardener, and just for kicks I mix in some acryloid B72 pellets in there. under 1/4 cup for a quart of hardener. Do remember that sometimes it takes more than 24 hours. I noticed doing a bunch of live oak that it was good after 3 days at least. My rig is a vacuum chamber about the size of a 2.5gal bucket and I submerge the scales in quart mason jars. I use a venturi vacuum pump to pull my vacuum to almost 20".

Chamber
http://www.alumilite.com/checkout/p...id=48&osCsid=dee2e56d3a9cc3f706549719c2464bd7

Vacuum pump
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3952

I have a 1/4" ball valve (think its a ball, it works on 1/4 turn) to hold vacuum. after the gauge. It held over 15" vacuum for 20 days while I was gone away on business.
 
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