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In your opinion, what's the biggest money rip-off in terms of knife ?

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by Chapp, May 1, 2019.

  1. zoogirl

    zoogirl Basic Member Basic Member

    22
    Feb 26, 2019
    The one knife that gets the most battering and abuse is a really cheap made in China three blade no name. It’s held up over several years of torture.
    The point is, you can get a very usable knife for a very low price if you aren’t hung up on it’s brand or origin. My idea of overpriced would be any knife that costs more but holds up less well than my trashy old work knife!
     
    Night Rider and jackknife like this.
  2. dirc

    dirc

    Jan 31, 2018
    lol, that sounds like just about every blade then, except maybe a mora?
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
    jackknife likes this.
  3. jackknife

    jackknife

    Oct 2, 2004
    Zoogirl, you've stumbled on the unspoken and ugly truth of the whole thing; that it doesn't matter what kind of knife you have, or what it's made of, or even what country it's from. This forum is made of of people who are knife nuts. The means they are the 1% of the worlds population that obsess over knives to the point that the rest of the world thinks we're weird. And in truth they are right to some degree.

    Knife nuts, like car nuts, flashinght nuts, and other obsessive hobbyists many times go totally over board that it is a bit neurotic. Do we really need a car that will go 150 miles per hour to run down to the store for a quart of milk or commute to work at 50 mph? Or a flashlight with umpteen zillion lumens that will sear the retinas our of a raccoons eyes at 800 yards, just to find the way to the circuit breaker box in a thunderstorm when the lights go out?

    The truth is, all those knives we love to collect are just like all those fishing lures that fill the isle at the store. They are made to catch the dollars from a fisherman wallet instead of fish. Your cheap little Chinese three blade no name is a shinning example of what the whole rest of the world functions with. I believe Jeff Randall was totally correct when he said in an interview that most the knife market is BS. Heres from an interview he did;

    Quote [IW: What trends are currently influencing the knife market?

    JR: "In all honesty, the knife industry is about 99 percent bullshit. We sell knives every day to people who will never use them. Knife buying is more of a want than a need.

    I grew up on a farm carrying a three-bladed "Old timer" pocketknife. It did everything I needed and got used daily. All these new weird shapes and designs that keep coming out are made just to have something new and "tacticool." Most companies refuse to speak the truth and just say, "the reason we designed this is because some mall ninja would think it's cool and spend money on it."

    Once you get in the real world of knife use, whether it's butchering a deer or building a fire, you will see that a simple, basic knife design is all that's really needed to perform the task."]

    So I guess any knife that costs more than some Old Timer or Mora is a rip off. If you want to collect knives for the sake of collecting knives, thats fine. But do so with the realization that just because you have a 200 dollar knife in your pocket you are no better equipped than some working guy with a 30 dollar Case stockman in his pocket. The cheaper knife will cut a piece of rope, open a box, open a plastic blister package, slice an apple, strip some wire, or whittle a perfect hot dog stick for the grandkid just as good. That piece of rope, or card board box won't know or care its been cut with a 10 dollar Mora or a 200 dollars whiz bang of a tacticool folder.

    Spend what you like because you collect knives and are obsessed over them. But don't kid yourself that you're really getting a better knife for the job. When it comes to cutting, any decent knife will do. 20 or 30 bucks will get you a very good knife for everyday use in the real world. But then we're the obsessed and afflicted knife nuts. We're the ones that will spend money on a knife that the rest of the world thinks is totally nuts. And they are right. We are.
     
  4. Night Rider

    Night Rider Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 16, 2018
    ^Agreed and Well said jack. I feel just as confident carrying my Case Stockman for the day knowing that it can get the job done just as well as my ZT's or Benchmade's.
     
  5. zoogirl

    zoogirl Basic Member Basic Member

    22
    Feb 26, 2019
    That’s entirely correct! I don’t actually collect tactical. My idea of a great knife is one made before I was born and solid as a rock or pretty or unusual. I collect Richards of all kinds and gentleman’s knives and small fixed. I’ll throw in other oldies that catch my eye. No ‘latest and greatest’ for me. I prefer actual quality. Well, celluloid Richards sneak in under the ‘pretty’ category! ;)
    Super expensive tacs remind me of my old coworker’s purse. It cost $400, was white with the makers logo printed all over it, and had only one smallish compartment. Ugly as sin. It looked worn and scungy within weeks and when last seen, was thrown on the junk heap in the trunk of her car. All the logos on it couldn’t keep it from being ultimately useless.
    I go to the swapmeets all the time. Seems the latest thing in knives there are these multi coloured things with weird blade shapes. I don’t know how they’re made. It looks like maybe some kind of glaze fired on the blade. They all have a sort of rainbow effect and lean toward pinks and purples.
    No, I don’t own one. I suspect they are made to appeal to women, but not this one! They’re out of my price range anyway. Dunno what kind of steel is under the bling. The ones I’ve handled seem sharp enough, but I’d hate to trust one on a camping trip. I bet it would faint after the first weenie stick!
     
  6. fly36gti

    fly36gti

    114
    May 28, 2016
    Anything with a blade thinner than .150"
     
  7. jackknife

    jackknife

    Oct 2, 2004
    What you've seen is the modern miracle of marketing.

    The human race in general is not made up of Mensa Society members. In fact, people are not very smart and are very easily led in most directions. This is not escaped the notice of sales and advertising execs. The cigarette industry used it, the auto makers use it, and the gun industry uses it in high gear. Marketing is the deliberate intent to lead you, the consumer, in a direction that will make you spend your money on what you don't really need. This is done buy product placement in movies and in the hands of celebrities, articles in knife and gun magazines that are misleading and exaggerate facts greatly, and introducing a "cool factor". Add in a lots of hype, smoke and mirrors, and you have an industry that has sold out the consumer for the sake of huge profit margins made off items that are not really more functional than what your granddaddy carried. Just a lot fancier and more expensive.

    The cutlery industry was collapsing in the 1980's. Life in American cities and suburbs had evolved to where most people didn't even carry a knife anymore. Easy open packages, and the rise of the office cubicle environment made a pocket knife not needed. If it was, a very small penknife like the Victorinox classic did the job. It opened mail, cut small strings, and snipped things if the office scissors were not around. Camillus, Schrade and others were going belly up. So they came up with a way to artificially stimulate the sales of knives; the rise of the tactical knife. TV shows movies, books all showed the knife now as a weapon. Easy and fast opening, it became in 10 years the daydream of many to be the avenger with the blade. Fighting off imaginary Chinese paratroopers, or surviving the wilds of the National Parks with the highly hyped survival knife. Shouting "WOLVERINES!" helped.:eek:

    The whole tactical knife thing was just a jump start on a fading knife market. Another ugly truth is, in the 21st century urban/suburban lifestyle, there is really not much use for much of a knife. Any little SAK or penknife sized knife in a pocket will handle what you run into. All this stuff you see in the market is just "new" stuff for sales. They have to keep coming up with "new" to keep the money coming in. Like blade coatings, "new" blade shapes that appeal to the would be ninja, and best of all, the "new" steels that promise to put the "old" steels to shame. It will cost them all of a dollar or two to use the "new" steel, but they can hike the cost of the knife by 30 to 40% for the gullible knife buyers.

    I think P.T. Barnum said it best; "There's a sucker born every minute."
     
  8. zoogirl

    zoogirl Basic Member Basic Member

    22
    Feb 26, 2019
    One thing I will say though, and that is the fact that the hype also goes in reverse. Older names like Camillus and Schrade get their fair share of ‘OMG, gotta have one!’. That leads to ridiculous prices for vintage knives. I was in the antique mall yesterday and someone was asking ten bucks for a Richards with both scales off it. That’s about eight bucks more than it was worth!
    I will say the vintage overpriced knives do, at least, have the advantage of quality workmanship. I was given a ‘60-‘76 Camillus 72 and having heard the hype, was quite curious as to what the actual knife would be like. Yep, it lives up.
     
    SavageSick and jackknife like this.
  9. jackknife

    jackknife

    Oct 2, 2004
    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Unfortunately the knife field is just like the gun field, soon as something is no longer made, it's a priceless collectors piece. Piece of what I won't say.

    The old Schrades are a prime example. all the old timers pocket knives were made with what was called the "Swindon Key" construction. This was NOT a through pin and peened holding the knife together, but a cheap shell bolster that was a sliding key kind of affair that was just a cheap way to build a knife. If any play developed in the blade/bolster fit, it was impossible to take it to a vice or work bench and give it a few taps on the pivot to snug it up. The "new" Schrades made in China are an actual improvement of construction as they really use a through pin that is posable to tap tighter to adjust the fit.

    On theater hand, my first Buck 301 stockman was made by Camillus and I used the ever lovin dog poo out of it for 25 years. It got a little wobble in the blades once a while, so I just tapped the pivot with a hammer and snugged itup and polished off the bolsters. At the end of 25 years, including 10 years in the army combat engineers, it was sharpened down to three pointy toothpick blades. It got replaced with a Buck 303 cadet that is still serving. now and then when I don't have my Buck 309 or Victorinox executive in my coin pocket. Those old Camillus made Buck stockmen where a hell of a pocket knife. And the Camillus M-I-L knife or demo knife as they were called, were great. Our supply room handed them pretty regular and they go t used and abused as old young G.I.'s could torture a tool. They were so good, that in Vietnam they were good for a case of cold "33" and a meal. They were viable trade goods while on pass in Saigon. Throw in a large can of coffee swiped from the mess hall or a couple cartons of American cigarettes, and we're talking pleasant company for the evening.

    The Camillus MKII's they gave us when we rotated in, were abused to the point of criminal, bu they worked like champs. Plain old 1095 carbon steel with stacked leather handles, they flat out worked great. My youngest son has mine and it's his camping knife. A little more than 50 years after it was issued to me, it's still in service, but looking a bit worn down a bit.
     
    lonestar1979 and SavageSick like this.
  10. DocJD

    DocJD

    Jan 29, 2016
    :) I used to have a '60's VW bug . As good as any vehicle to just get from pt A to B , over good roads . Very economical to buy and run .

    But later I needed to haul tons of firewood and building materials over rutted , muddy terrain . VW just couldn't do it . Had to get a big 4X4 PU .

    A cheap slippy can do everything up to a point ...and no more . Then you need a Cold Steel Tri-ad or similar hard use folder (or a fixed blade) . :cool::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  11. sabre cat

    sabre cat Basic Member Basic Member

    Jul 4, 2014
    At this point I only own one Cutco folder and it has been OK but not spectacular.

    Compare Cutco’s 1891 folder to Ka-Bar’s 4065 folder. They are basically the same knife but the street price is half as much for the Ka-Bar. If Ka-Bar is making a profit at $20-25 bucks retail, why is the Cutco asking price so much more?

    It’s nothing more than a ripoff.
     
  12. Dean51

    Dean51 Gold Member Gold Member

    909
    Aug 30, 2014
    The knife industry is full of hype, smoke and morrors, just like it was in the 1960's. Terms like True Sharp and Sword Brand, were & are marketing hype, to sell a stainless that didn't hold an edge as well as 1095. Those old stainless steels were chosen because they were cheap to stamp out. That meant more profit for the makers.

    Is it hype, smoke and mirrors or advertising? You have always been bombarded by hype, you're just not seeing it.
    Everything you buy is driven by hype smoke and mirrors. Remember the Oldsmobile Rocket 88 V8, that was some space age hype there. I'm sure the iphone X is much better than the old outdated 9.

    You talk like only old knives will last for 25 years. What if your Buck 301 had a better steel say 154CM, that you only needed to sharpen I/3 as much. Maybe it would still be in service and not sharpened down to 3 useless tooth pick blades.
    You said the old Buck got wobble in the blades a few times, so you peened and polished. Would it not have been easier to just make a tiny turn of a torx screw?

    Stacked leather might be a good casual camp handle but on a field knife was the worst idea ever. Water, fish slime, internals and stacked leather don't mix well. If you didn't get that leather cleaned up very well afterwards, you could be left with a smelly mess of nasty leather.
    I'll take FRN, G10 or Micarta and 154CM or some stainless anyday. Please tell me again why that combination of hyped materials won't last 50 years!

    As one old man to another. It sounds like you've become a stubborn old man with a deep aversion to any new idea. I'll admit most modern knives are pretty useless as cutting tools. If you look around, there are exceptions. You can find moderns that are good cutters and small enough to edc, without scaring the general public. The Lionsteel barlows and Maserin plows are two modern traditionals I'll put up against Camillus or Case in a 25 year test.

    Not everything new is bad and not everything old was good. Just like in the “good old days” you have to weed out the bad from the good. I believe you used "Swindon Key" as an example. At least today you can search Swindon key and learn.
     
  13. palonej

    palonej Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Aug 5, 2015
    Ummmm Dean???? I am forced to report your post......common sense has no place here!!
    :D:p
    Great post brother.
    :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
    BoulderTroll and Dean51 like this.
  14. stabman

    stabman Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 17, 2007
    My grandfather was old enough to fight through WW2, and worked a bunch of hard jobs using regular slip-joint knives (normally with multiple blades).

    He did not see my "modern" knives with their "tactical" features as hype or stupid marketing...he saw tools that would work fine for cutting things. :)

    Of course there will be silly marketing along the way in any industry; oddly enough, they want to make money. :eek:
    And it ain't new either. Look back over 100 years through advertisements for knives, and you will see marketing professionals tailoring ads to their audience in order to make sales.

    Truth is, I end up making my knife choices with far less advertising input than most other things I buy.
     
    Steely_Gunz likes this.
  15. Dean51

    Dean51 Gold Member Gold Member

    909
    Aug 30, 2014
    I'am Sorry :rolleyes: :D
     
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  16. Lance Leon

    Lance Leon Gold Member Gold Member

    675
    May 3, 2017
    No, 'gather' is not an assumption, it is based on some degree of evidence directly related to what I was referring to, IE the conditions in high-end Chinese knife factories like WE and Reate. I've heard (both directly and indirectly) from people have been to their factories and seen the business environment in their industrial district, including some US makers and designers who have worked with those companies. Plus, there's a number of photos of company events and their working conditions.
    You seem to believe that no Chinese company can break the mold - that's an assumption.

    Edit: the most well known person who can speak to the work and business conditions in high end Chinese knife manufacturing is Liong Mah; he's visited multiple times and spoken about it publicly. Of course there's others like Massdrop and Ferrum Forge.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  17. UDIVER

    UDIVER Gold Member Gold Member

    650
    Nov 10, 2013
    To each their own.

    I've owned everything from (to name a few) CRK, Hinderer, Medford, Reate, Benchmade, Spyderco, Mid-Techs....etc etc .....the list goes on and on, you get the point.

    The only company I feel most comfortable laying money down on is Emerson (not just for re-sale value) but you're getting more than just a knife.

    I dare you to find a company that takes care of its buyers better and not to mention I've owned over 60+ Emersons.......none of them had to be sent back or had a single issue.

    Now for what I think is a rip-off , super steel.....95% of the people on here use their knives to open boxes and cut tape..........I'm pretty sure you don't need M390 for that.
     
  18. DrRollinstein

    DrRollinstein Gold Member Gold Member

    918
    Feb 20, 2018
    Super steel isnt a rip off just because most people arent using it fully. It's still just as good as it's made put to be.
     
  19. UDIVER

    UDIVER Gold Member Gold Member

    650
    Nov 10, 2013

    Listen, I'm all for good steel but anything over 154, VG10, s30v is overkill and for shock value.
     
  20. marrenmiller

    marrenmiller Basic Member Basic Member

    Apr 6, 2017
    I can agree on warranty support being important for consideration. However, if you've never sent a knife back for an issue, how do you know first-hand how well they take care of buyers? Tons of companies give good warranty support.

    Also I don't know what you mean about resale value. I don't see them keeping value at all on eBay.
     
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