Indonesian Credit Card Scam Help Please!

Normark

Normark

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(( See the date! This thread was resurrected after 37 posts! ))

Hey Guys...

When advice is needed I come to the Experts...

Got a fellow wanting to make a rather large CC purchase from Indonesia, on some Leatherman Waves...

Have heard of an Indonesian scam before,, but need more info..

How to protect myself from a possible scam..
Would Paypal be a safe way to go, or Cashiers check ??

Any info would be much appreciated...

Thanks in advance.

Eric...
 
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You can't go wrong with a cashiers check/bank check as long as it's written on a US bank IMO.

Brownie
 
I would suggest PayPal would be the way to go - isn't the money in your account before you send the goods. Or what about Bidpay - you get the money order in your hand and in the bank before you send your goods.
 
I think you can retract or encumber paypal funds.
Also they can fake up checks on local banks,
so yes something that requires actual cash to get.
 
Just a quick note on money orders. Usually money orders and cashier checks are a sure thing.....or at least they used to be. If you enter into a transaction where you are receiving payment by cashier check or money order, upon receipt of the payment CALL AND VERIFY WITH THE ISSUING BANK PRIOR TO SHIPPING ANYTHING. There are a lot of people printing very good copies of these documents recently. In some cases your bank will accept it, you take the money and later that week you find out the check was fraudulent and the bank now wants their money back.

It only takes a few minutes to pick up a phone and call the issuing bank. I am not trying to scare anyone away from these payment options, they are still good options, but be careful. I am not spreading gossip, I speak from experience in this matter. It's no fun.

WT
 
The only way you can totally protect yourself from these scumsuckers is to have the money sent by bank wire transfer. The problem with that is that you have to give them your bank information.
 
Don't forget that your bank may charge a fee to receive a wire transfer, especially international.

International cashier's checks and money orders are notorious for fraud. If you get one, deposit it in your account and then wait two weeks (or whatever your bank recommends) before sending the merchandise.

Same thing with Credit Cards. Just tell the customer that since they're international, you'll have to hold the merchandise for a week or so to assure payment clearance. Process the card, write down the transaction number, wait a week, and then call your bank and double-check that transaction before sending the stuff off.
 
Moving to TGB&U ...


Watch out for the one where he wants to send you a check for a lot more and you're supposed to take out the money for your stuff and give the rest to somebody else he owes money to. A couple of weeks after the transaction is completed the check will turn out to be a forgery and your bank will demand repayment of the full amount....

You might have a look at www.timezone.com -- most of the Indonesian scammers focus on high-buck scores and the watch wnuts are more often targets than us knife knuts, so they are more familiar with the latest variants. Be very suspicious. Of course there are honest people in Indonesia, but they know damn well why everybody is so suspicious of them and won't be offended.
 
Don't forget that with a credit card, there are actually two transactions going on. The bank is simultaneously loaning money to the buyer and paying money to the seller. The two transactions are simultaneous, but not linked. Once the bank gives you that confirmation number, the only way the bank can take the money away from the merchant is to assert that the mrechant committed some sort of fraud.

If a merchant sells a customer something via cash and the cash turns out to be counterfeit, then the merchant bears the loss.

If a merchant sells a customer something via a check and the check bounces, then the bank declines to pay the merchant the check and returns the check to the merchant. The merchant is now responsible to persue the check writter if he chooses to to attempt to recover his money.

But, if a merchant sells an item to a customer via CC and the customer then decides to not pay his bill. The CC company can NOT go back to the merchant and say, "Since our customer didn't pay the debt he owes us, we're not going to pay you." No. The bank pays the merchant and the bank has to persue the fraud or absorb the loss.
 
I'm a legal immigrant and local here but I hold an offshore account because of family overseas. I have funds in the account and therefore for some transactions, I would use my offshore CCs as a form of withdrawal. I do come across many merchants here that won't take off shore CCs. This is a hassle for me. But I do recommend from a merchant point of view is to verify with the issuing bank, i.e. the name, oversea billing address, passport details, etc.
As a user, I will always be glad to provide verification when requested. I believe many of us that deal with Imports & Exports or work overseas have off shore accounts with remaining funds. Especially legal immigrants.
Usually if it concerns fraud, the buyer will back out when verification is requested.
The next scenario is real, it happens to me during my college days. I really disapprove of their behavior. It happened with my international roommates, mostly from Indonesia. These were rich kids that came over to study and they drove BMWs. They deposited tons of cash in BOA accounts and therefore were issued high limit CCs. Upon graduation and leaving the United States, they will max out their card, close their account and disappeared. Next, I got all their bills for months! Well, whose fault is that?
The transaction or purchases made by them were legit, however, they just refuse to pay the bank.
I believe if the transaction amount is large, request for more proof or at least proper import & export docs (bank papers, etc.). Some might be legit.
Hope this helps! Sorry if it sound more like a ethical subject?
 
Just so you know, money orders issued by banks are definitely not foolproof. I have one here at the moment that bounced. It was issued by Wells Fargo Bank. I've refused two other Wells Fargo money orders. I simply returned them with the order and an explanation.

Personally, I wouldn't do any business with anybody in Indonesia at all. Way, way too much fraud. Actually I stopped doing international business entirely. It was a money losing proposition. Keep your business at home. It isn't foolproof but it's a whole lot safer. Take care.
 
Gotta agree with Knife Outlet! I received a similar order (actually two) in August 2001. Called VISA to verify CC information. Everything was bogus. Best way to make money on that order is to refuse it. Period.
 
Oh, one correction Gollnick. Actually, the bank can go into the merchant's account and take money any time. In fact they do on every chargeback. Mail order merchants who do not have the card physically to scan and a customer signature lose every single chargeback. No kidding, anybody can simply contest a charge made by a mail order merchant and get their money back. Every time. It happens to us a couple of times per month. It used to happen on 30 to 40% of all international transactions. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more. It is the easiest form of theft I've ever encountered.

There is simply no sane way to do international credit card transactions. I wouldn't do it. And nobody has the time to verify transactions with a bank in a foreigh country, Shintaro. It's just plain impractical. Take care.
 
Have them Western Union the money to you. They can use almost any branch of BII (Bank Indonesia International) to Western Union the money to you in the US. All they have to do is let you know the number associated with the transfer. It is expensive but it is the most secure way that I know of. The Western Union fee is about 10% so maybe splitting the fee would work if it is expensive.
 
Eric:

Don't ship a thing unless you have the CASH...that was: C-A-S-H-...in your hand!

A few months ago I put a very expensive watch up for auction on eBay. Within 24 hours, I had received 8 private "offers" for the watch by email - all for the full price, all from people with "0" Feedback rating, and all from Indonesia! Each time I tried to verify a User Name, it came back as "Unknown".
 
We get 'feelers' every week or so...such as: "I would like to buy 100 Leatherman Waves. Please send total including FedEx shipping and I will send you my card info..." Even had one from a guy that had an email address that linked back to a fraudulent credit card generator (yeah, they are out there).
We ship to only one fellow in Indonesia...a 'native' that has issued me a friendly warning...'do not sell to Indonesia'
I would estimate that 8-10% of our internet sales are international and I have developed a good relationship with many international customers. If the order seem too good to be true, it probably is. It helps that my webmaster is a cop with good connections :D
Seller beware. md
 
Paypal won't do, as it won't allow users from Indonesia to subscribe their credit card to it .. i know .. i did try.

However, Amazon is kind enough to let me use my CC to purchase. You can ask proof from your customer if he ever purchase anything from Amazon with the same CC (i.e. order#) but not sure if Amazon would confirm that (customer privacy?)

The last time i ordered a knife from US is to get my friend's son who studies here do the ordering, pay using his US based CC and when my friend comes back from his visit, he brought me the knife and I pay him.

Yes, international biz is terribly risky, also for the buyer.

I did buy some item from a forumite, sent cashier's cheque, cleared, item got shipped, but never receive due to the postal service that sucks down here :barf: . Knowing the reputation of the forumite, i trust fully that he sent the item, it's not surprising not to get item delivered.

The safest is by using CC, then calling the issuer if it is real or not. If you want, i can help checking around down here (local call is cheaper, plus local knowledge). Email me with details, but given the time difference, i won't be able to response very fast, also i don't check personal email in weekends - family time :) ). Monday (May 3) is a holiday here, the fastest i can check my email is Tuesday.

Good luck.
 
Bank checks and cashier's checks are forged, counterfeited and stolen all the time.
Go with a wire transfer or tell the person that any check [even traveler's checks] will be held until cleared. Have your bank verify thru the Payee's bank that there is ample funds available in the account and that the check has cleared.

Do not accept any credit cards, even Paypal. If the buyer asks for a chargeback you are dead and they will drain your account to get the money. You want C-A-S-H and the safest way is to make certain the funds [in whatever form] have cleared the payee's bank [yup it's time consuming and a pain but if you want to be safe Internationally....]. After verification, ship....

**edited to fix spelling.
 
I was in Indonesia (JK) to set up a factory long time ago. It seems that there are 2 types of businesses there. One is legit and one is not! I have a good friend there and therefore avoided all the rip offs. Anyway, I've learned from my friend that all the cops or what ever authority were corrupted and only money can buy their services. A lot of money went under the table! Guess what, we are making NIKE shoes and shirts for pennies. Sort of the balance of trade(barter) thingy. As for now after the fall of the late Government, I wonder if the situation has change from bad to worst. My friend in LA still imports from indon furnitures and home goods. Actually, he mentioned that many US based large Corp. imports from Bali as well.
IMHO, as small business, it might be too risky now to deal with individual indons, the big corp always have insurance. The same with Philipines, as some batches of my friend's furniture cargo arrived out of specs. The factory was actually operated by US based Henredon and making for Ralph Lauren. I think the QC must be sleeping.
As every one have mentioned, cash is king! Go wire.
Plastic sucks.
 
Think logically,

Why is someone all the way from Indonesia buying stuff from Canada?

1. Am I way cheaper than Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia?
2. Can I deliver faster and cheaper than above countries?

If you answer no or maybe to the above questions, then you are getting scammed.
 
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