Interest in DLC coating "service"?

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I put service in quotes because it might be more of a group buy. I'm not trying to make money here, just give myself access to affordable DLC coatings for my blades.

Quick background: The first 10 years of my career were spent at a company that manufactures high-vac vapor deposition systems, e-beam, resistance, sputtering, ion-assist, etc. I am still good friends with the owner and visit there regularly. There is a fairly good chance that any of the DLC coating services used by knifemakers and others employ at least some equipment manufactured by this company.

I am wondering if there would be any interest in this. Runs typically are $300-500 in materials and operating cost (the machine that these would be done on runs about $800k, plus maintenance, plus electricity). It is no surprise that DLC coatings are so expensive for knifemakers, as vapor deposition is an expensive pursuit in general. The system I have access to is fairly large, with approximately 15ft^2 of fixable area for coating. That means if I could get enough blades together for a run, it may be feasible to get into single digits per blade in cost.

The main downside is the wait. I would need time to assemble enough blades to fill a run, so anyone interested would need to be able to wait for several weeks or possibly even a month or two for their blades. This may be a problem for some, or no problem at all for others. If I was able to assemble enough blades quickly, the coating itself takes a day or so total including setup. Quality will not be a concern here. The owner is an expert on thin film deposition, and has been in business for 4 decades. He is a consultant and supplier to companies such as those who provide DLC coating services.

I'm just wondering how many knifemakers would have interest in affordable DLC coating, and whether this is something worth asking my old boss for some of his time.


edit: There is also some chance I could convince him to let me use some of the surplus equipment to build a small coating system for knife use. If that was the case, I could have better turnaround, but with higher cost. This isn't limited to just blades... for instance, it would be possible to put gold TiN coating on a stainless guard, or a grey TiCN coating instead of etching or plating.
 
I wish I had a blade ready. I will monitor this in case I can take advantage of this deal.

I what would be the maximum blade length?

Larry
Tinkerer
 
Would definitely be interested... Would this be limited to blades only or would it be possible to do a slab of Ti like the lock side of a knife?
 
tinkerer said:
I wish I had a blade ready. I will monitor this in case I can take advantage of this deal.

I what would be the maximum blade length?

Larry
Tinkerer
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That's tricky to answer, but probably in the range of 36" with so-so coating uniformity, and about 18" with good-to-excellent uniformity. These are wild guesses until math and test runs are done. By uniformity I mean coating thickness, not necessarily appearance. The chamber top where the work is held is 48" in diameter, but about 6" in the center is taken up for monitoring equipment. So basically you get about 22" from the monitor port to the chamber wall, and that's the space you have to spin the knife around in for a uniform coating. Anything longer would have to straddle the chamber and would probably have thicker coating in the middle section.


dcmartin said:
Would definitely be interested... Would this be limited to blades only or would it be possible to do a slab of Ti like the lock side of a knife?
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No, it would be possible to put in just about anything that can take the coating. The main thing is the tooling, something like that might require an additional or modified rotational axis on the planetary for good uniformity.There are also other coating types, but I think that it would probably be the black or dark grey variety that would be easiest to fill a run with. I could see the gold TiN coating looking amazing on a jeweled dagger or something.
 
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Can't add much to the conversation, but I will say that I'd be fairly blown away by a custom with dlc. Seriously, that would be bananas.
 
I would like to know what a DLC coating is, please. I would also like to ask is it really only a coating, because once the edge is sharpened the coating would be gone and the only addition would be on the outside of carbon steel blades. Right? Frank
 
Frank Niro said:
I would like to know what a DLC coating is, please. I would also like to ask is it really only a coating, because once the edge is sharpened the coating would be gone and the only addition would be on the outside of carbon steel blades. Right? Frank
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DLC is Diamond Like Carbon. It is 72 HRC if I remember correctly. It can be applied to carbon or SS blades (or ti for that matter).

It is just a coating, yes, but it's something that I've never seen outside of production knives. The reason is because it's so expensive to have done.

The coating is usually unaffected by most abrasion, at least in my experience. It also looks pretty cool. On a custom knife, to anyone that is familiar with the stuff, it would be very different. Btw, the coating is extremely thin, unlike cerakote or any kind of paint/powder or whatever. Make sure your finish is good before sending the blade in, but I'm sure the OP can tell you more about that.

A DLC custom... That would be neat! :)
 
Frank Niro said:
I would like to know what a DLC coating is, please. I would also like to ask is it really only a coating, because once the edge is sharpened the coating would be gone and the only addition would be on the outside of carbon steel blades. Right? Frank
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Frank,

This is a much more durable alternative to some of the other coatings that are put on blades, specifically to black them out. It also is very slick, very abrasion resistant, and offers some protection against corrosion. It's basically the toughest protective coating (in terms of hardness) that can practically be applied to a blade, to my knowledge.

As Strigamort mentioned, it also has very little thickness compared to some of the other blade coatings out there, which can sometimes be thick enough to change the blade's performance, or can cause drag due to the nature of the coating.

The DLC coating can actually be applied after sharpening if desired, and it will have a similar effect to the TiN coated scissors you see sold now (scissors with gold blades, that is a DLC type coating). It is true that eventually you will sharpen the knife and wear the coating away, but that is true with any coating. This is mostly intended as a superior solution for darkening the appearance of the blade.


Strigamort said:
Just found this-

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond-like_carbon

Vintage, I hope you don't mind my thoughts in your thread. I just think it's a neat idea. I hope it pans out!
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I don't mind at all. :)
 
Can you post some photos of materials before and after DLC?
How slick is the surface after DLC?
How brittle is DLC? How strong is the bond to the metal? Will it chip off due to impact, etc.?
 
I'm interested!

DLC is good stuff... look up DLC Rolex watches to get an idea of the look.
 
Would be interested to get a 17 inch (total length) Kukri coated.
Is mirror finish ok or would you need something more rough for the dLc to stick?
What will happen to a wooden handle while coating?
Thank you!
 
bladsmth said:
Can you post some photos of materials before and after DLC?
How slick is the surface after DLC?
How brittle is DLC? How strong is the bond to the metal? Will it chip off due to impact, etc.?
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Daniel Fairly Knives said:
I'm interested!

DLC is good stuff... look up DLC Rolex watches to get an idea of the look.
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I have a DLC coated Kershaw storm and a DLC coated Seiko 5 chrono.
Unless you are going to let your knife sit on the shelf or see only minimal usage on soft things, I would not recommend a DLC coating.
The "diamond" part of the name is quite misleading. It will scratch up and it will scratch off. Leaving you with a rather ugly and expensive coating that will need to be stripped and recoated to look right, adding more expense. I myself do not recommend the DLC coating and will never purchase another item with it on it.
 
This is a DLC coated Rockstead. Granted it's a $3,000 knife, but you get the idea. :)

r-kondlc.png
 
Karda said:
I have a DLC coated Kershaw storm and a DLC coated Seiko 5 chrono.
Unless you are going to let your knife sit on the shelf or see only minimal usage on soft things, I would not recommend a DLC coating.
The "diamond" part of the name is quite misleading. It will scratch up and it will scratch off. Leaving you with a rather ugly and expensive coating that will need to be stripped and recoated to look right, adding more expense. I myself do not recommend the DLC coating and will never purchase another item with it on it.
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Good to know. So maybe good for tactical color and rust prevention but not very permanent. Maybe better than black oxide like on some leathermen?
What do you think about golden TiNi like on drill bits? Sure looks cheesy on a blade, but if it's functional, why not :)
 
DLC is sp3 and sp2 configuration carbon atoms bonded to the metal atoms and is only microns thick. SP3 configuration is diamond. I have a kershaw ener-g, a sub 3 inch bladed pocket knife with dlc coating. I've found that the scratches on it arent the coating getting scratched its the coating wearing off a part of the thing it touched like very high grit sandpaper. The only problem I have with it was trying to do an edge reprofile, it requires diamond sharpeners as it only skated on ceramic and in fact dulled my ceramic rods a little i think, there are shiny lines on it now. At one point i tried to remove it entirely with carbide sandpaper by hand and managed to get it to the last few atoms thick that are directly bonded to the metal. Those last few atoms thick are sp3 diamond hard carbon. Its now a shiny grey colour and i cannot remove anymore. I cannot scratch it with ceramic sharpening sticks.
 
im looking to get a straight razor gold plated but DLC might be a option. surface finish changes the look of the coating right ?
 
Karda said:
I have a DLC coated Kershaw storm and a DLC coated Seiko 5 chrono.
Unless you are going to let your knife sit on the shelf or see only minimal usage on soft things, I would not recommend a DLC coating.
The "diamond" part of the name is quite misleading. It will scratch up and it will scratch off. Leaving you with a rather ugly and expensive coating that will need to be stripped and recoated to look right, adding more expense. I myself do not recommend the DLC coating and will never purchase another item with it on it.
Click to expand...

Jens Schuetz said:
Good to know. So maybe good for tactical color and rust prevention but not very permanent. Maybe better than black oxide like on some leathermen?
What do you think about golden TiNi like on drill bits? Sure looks cheesy on a blade, but if it's functional, why not :)
Click to expand...

butcher_block said:
im looking to get a straight razor gold plated but DLC might be a option. surface finish changes the look of the coating right ?
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I answered all three of these at once because they kind of play into each other a bit.

Surface finish does definitely change the final appearance, and the durability. Just figure that whatever finish is currently on the blade will change color, and that is how it will look when done. This type of coating will be most successful on nearly mirror finished parts. Basically, the higher the grit you sand to, the more unified the final coating will end up. That isn't to say that it won't work at all, but any type of satin finish DLC such as found on "tactical" knives, will be pretty much set up to fail, unless done absolutely perfectly.

The knife that Strigamort posted is an ideal finish to accept DLC coating, with the polished blade and bright brushed flats.

Any "bright" finish, such as a high grit as ground or hand sand, will probably perform fairly well.


This is what DLC can do when it's applied properly (skip to 1:10 to see brute toughness):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPFbQtpMcYk




Cleaning is also a huge issue. The reason these coatings are so expensive is not just the equipment expense, but proper processing and discipline. Any type of large batch low cost DLC like Kershaw's, especially satin, is a scary proposition from my experience.

At the facility I used to work at, parts were hand cleaned with aggressive soaps and high grit polish, then sent through a 5 stage automated ultrasonic cleaner and iso vapor degreaser before coating, and even then we still occasionally had cleaning issues. Different substrates (read: different blade steels) may react differently to the cleaning process, as well as the coating.

If this is done right, it can be almost mind-bogglingly tough. If done wrong, it's worse than spraypaint.
 
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