Is a fixed blade “concealed” if it’s in my backpack?

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Roamad

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Looking for some clarification on this point. I’m in CA but the question is probably relevant in many other states.

My state allows open carry (i.e. worn outside clothing in a belt sheath) of any size fixed blade, but bans concealed carry of a fixed blade.

I want to know: Am I breaking the law if my fixed blade is sheathed inside a backpack that I’m carrying on my back?

I’ve consulted KnifeRights and other sources but no joy so far. I guess I’m asking, in part, about the legal definition of “concealed”.

Specific legal references would be helpful.

Thanks!
 
This is a bit tricky. It used to be perfectly legal to carry a fixed-blade concealed in a backpack or other parcel in California, but a recent superior court decision put the subject into more of a grey area, and significantly increases the risk.

For reference, the statute in California law against the concealed carry of fixed-blades and similar stabbing weapons (dirks and daggers) is CA pc 21310, and it specifically refers to a dirk/dagger "carried concealed upon the person".

Also, CA pc 16470 specifically defines dirks/daggers as items "capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon". "ready use" being the key point for the purpose of this post.

So here's the story-

In People v Pellecer (2011) a young man was convicted of "carrying a concealed dirk/dagger" when police discovered fixed-blades (throwing knives) inside his backpack. Mr. Pellecer's conviction was overturned (2013) when the Appeals Court determined that the knives being in his backpack did not constitute "carried concealed upon the person".

That decision made it legal to possess fixed-blades concealed in a backpack or other parcel.

But an important detail to remember about Pellecer's case is that he was lying on the backpack (on the ground) when the police found him, and discovered the knives.

But then in 2016 another case came along, People v Wade. Mr. Wade was caught carrying a pistol concealed in a backpack. He was charged with carrying a concealed firearm "upon the person", but the charge was dismissed by the trial judge citing People v Pellecer. However...

The prosecution appealed that ruling, and the Appeals Court granted the prosecutions appeal deciding that Mr. Wade could be charged with carrying a concealed firearm upon his person. You see, Mr. Wade was actually carrying his backpack, while Mr. Pellecer was lying on his. The difference may be trivial to us, but the Appeals Court chose to draw a clear distinction between the two, saying that because Mr. Wade was carrying his backpack that it made his pistol "readily available".

Now of course one case involved knives, and the other a pistol, but they both involve legal definitions of carrying a deadly weapon concealed "upon the person", as well as the legal definition of "readily available". As a result of People v Wade, it is now possible for prosecutors to charge a person carrying a fixed-blade concealed in a backpack as a violation of CA pc 21310, and if they obtain a conviction, there is a very good chance the Appeals Court will uphold the conviction based on the precedent of People v Wade.

Long story short, my advice would be that if you carry a fixed-blade in a backpack/duffle bag/etc, use something to lock the zippers together, like a zip tie, or a twist tie, or a lock. That way it cannot be said that your knife was "readily available as a stabbing weapon".

Of course, I am not your attorney. And this is just some advice from a guy on the internet.
 
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Seems backwards - the backpack on your back puts the opening away from your reach and not readily available, while lying on the backpack means it's not secured to stay behind you and may be more readily available just by twisting your body to get to the opening.
 
DocJekl said:
Seems backwards - the backpack on your back puts the opening away from your reach and not readily available, while lying on the backpack means it's not secured to stay behind you and may be more readily available just by twisting your body to get to the opening.
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This is California, the courts here occasionally make rulings that defy logic. But I'm sure this sort of thing isn't exclusive to California.

One example- in 2020 a California Appeals Court ruled in People v Hester that box cutters with retractable blades could be legally defined as "dirks and daggers" (the same category as fixed-blades). Bear in mind that the law here in California defines "dirks and daggers" as "any instrument with or without a handguard capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon"

After committing a violent assault Mr. Hester was caught with one box cutter in his pocket (blade retracted), and another in his backpack (blade retracted).

The prosecutor went all out trying to convict Mr. Hester on as many counts as possible, and chose to stretch the limits of the concealed dirk/dagger law by charging him with carrying concealed dirks/daggers (box cutters). And of course the fact that he was convicted of violently assaulting someone did not help him in his appeal. The Appeals Court chose to uphold those convictions by ruling that a box cutter with the blade retracted was "capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon".

Welcome to California. The laws don't always make sense here.
 
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killgar said:
Long story short, my advice would be that if you carry a fixed-blade in a backpack/duffle bag/etc, use something to lock the zippers together, like a zip tie
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I’m a LEO in CA and I concur with Killgar above.

Adding to the idea of a zip-tie on the backpack, I often carry a fixed blade in a backpack which has a thick zip tie (important that it can’t just be ripped off) that goes through the lanyard hole/etc of the knife and then through a hole in the sheath - effectively locking it into the sheath until you cut the zip tie off.

Another idea that is a little sketchy but I still believe fulfills the spirit of the law is something like this sheath I devised for this very purpose.

It’s designed so that the belt loop can be converted into a security flap that, when tied shut with a double-knotted bow, requires several seconds to open, thus defeating the “capable of ready use” part of the Penal code.

I would feel fairly confident defending my decision to carry this knife, tied properly, in my front pocket in CA. Not a lawyer though and this isn’t legal advice.

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scdub scdub K killgar Thanks for the thoughtful responses, very helpful. I’m OK with carrying in a backpack with the knife secured somehow as you describe—ziptie or twist tie or whatever. Not very practical but it might be doable if I can designate one backpack pocket for this purpose or come up with a way to secure the knife in the sheath.

This came to mind because I live in an urban area surrounded by river corridors. So there are times when I might want a fixed blade in the woods but don’t want to attract a lot of attention carrying it on my belt while I walk across town to get there.
 
Another thought. Would it pass muster to carry a fixed blade in a pocket like this, with the grip exposed? …
A77958-A2-521-E-485-A-80-BA-26959938-E913.jpg
 
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I asked same question in Florida to multiple LEO and got alot of different answers.1 said if i approach from the side and i cant see it ill arrest for concealed weapon.Here we can open carry any size knife(i thought that was true in Cali) but i wanted to put my knife in pack for city land(Same as you),found out i would be arrested.I solved ALL my carry problems by getting a concealed weapons permit.Just do it!In Florida its a weapon permit so not just firearms!Love Florida!!! If no permit Open carry !
 
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I vote with K killgar and scdub scdub for putting a lock on your zipper tabs to lock the backpack shut or something similar. Not a lawyer or expert, but from what I know having what the state considers a weapon in a locked container, at least in my state, makes it legal to transport it.
 
I'm in Cali. My advice is to carry a folder with a blade of 3" or an OTF with a 2" blade (MT sells Cali legal OTFs like the Troodon Mini or the Exocet.

Today, we are ready to go out to eat and I'm carrying the Troodon Mini. Sharp, snappy, and legal. I also am not a lawyer.
 
On a tangent.....my state had/has open carry before firearms permits were available.

Just it was Never practicable.
Hypothetically a legal person open carry walking to work.....in one hand this business man is carrying his briefcase. Opposite of his holster.
He stops, switches hands with his briefcase. To open a door, to shake hands, to pick a flower, to pick his nose....... Whatever.
That couple of seconds he Just committed a felony, concealing without a license. Because the briefcase briefly passed in front of the pistol/holster.

Open carry Especially difficult if he wanted to get into a car.

Our laws do Not serve you!!!
 
Roamad said:
Another thought. Would it pass muster to carry a fixed blade in a pocket like this, with the grip exposed? …
A77958-A2-521-E-485-A-80-BA-26959938-E913.jpg
Click to expand...

I hate to sound overly cautious, but I would advise against carrying a fixed-blade like that in California. 99 out of 100 LEO's might not have a problem with it, but the fact that most of the knife is concealed from view could very easily give that ONE LEO all the justification they need to claim the knife was concealed. And if your shirt came down over it, that would be even worse.

I carried fixed-blades in San Diego for many years (one at a time). For about a year or so I carried a small fixed-blade in a back pocket sheath with only the handle visible. A few different LEO's saw it and didn't have any problem with it. But my attorney warned me against carrying it in such a way. He advised me to carry any fixed-blade so that it was fully visible from the tip of the handle to the bottom of the sheath so there was no chance of an LEO claiming it was concealed. I decided to take his advice and started carrying my fixed-blades "in a sheath that is worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer", which is exactly how the law defines a legally carried fixed-blade (CA pc 20200).

As far as what constitutes a "concealed" fixed-blade in California, there are no laws or case laws on how much of the knife must be visible to be legal, but there are case laws that refer to the "intent" of the person with the knife being a major factor. If there is reason to believe that it was the intent of the person to try and disguise the knife or hide the knife from view, that goes very badly for the defendant. Unfortunately this is a very subjective standard, so it can be very easy to get screwed in court.

On the bright side, there is case law that protects people from prosecution for things like carrying an object that temporarily blocks an openly carried fixed-blade from view, as well as exclusions for, say, an LEO not seeing the knife because he's looking at you from your right side, and you're wearing the knife on your left side.

My general advice when it comes to knives and California is to err on the side of caution. Although California has become a very weird place in the past few years, with prosecutors in some counties refusing to prosecute people, and as a result LEO's being less inclined to arrest people for minor offenses, there are still places where prosecutors take a hard line and will happily pursue a weapons conviction.

I make a concentrated effort to follow the letter of the law down to the finest detail when it comes to knife carry. Like I said, 99 out of 100 LEO's might not care one bit about an ordinary persons knife, even if it's an illegal knife, or a knife being carried illegally, but if you're unlucky enough to run afoul of that ONE who wants to make an issue out of it, and you live in a part of California where they still like to prosecute people, making the wrong choice about the knife you carry, or how you carry it, could turn your life upside down and inside out, and speaking as someone who has been through the system, in my opinion it's just not worth it.

So maybe I am overly cautious :) . But jail can be very unpleasant, lawyers, fines, and court fees are expensive, a criminal conviction can mess up your life, and probation really sucks.
 
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Obscured from view is concealed. If you went into a store to shoplift and put items in you backpack, it would meet the definition of concealed. I too am an LEO. I’m much more concerned with intent, but shielded from view meets the standard.
 
this doesn't apply to you OP but all of the above brought back memories. i was sitting waiting for a bus. already knew Md. law and the knife i had i carried openly on my side. Yet, because many Leo's are trifling as duck, particularly in my city i devised a edge to defeat them.
these two cops actually played good cop bad cop, I know they thought it was funny. but i did not. one talked to me nice and calm and asked me questions. the other was telling me to shut the fuck up. while i was being calm i also knew they were cowards as many are in Baltimore to include a ton of cops lol!
so, what i did was take my cols steel master hunter sheath which was all black btw. and i wore black/dark clothing most of the time. I SEWED ON BRIGHT ORANGE AND YELLOW SAFETY VEST MATERIAL. I KNW DAMN WELL WHAT THE JUDGE IS GOING TO THINK IF A COP BRINGS ME IN.
OFFICER YOU'RE WASTING MY TIME WHEN IT'S CLEAR YOU COULDN'T MISS HIS KNIFE EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS A KNIFE. IT'S STANDS OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB... TAHOSE JUDGES GET MAD AS FUK AND WILL GIVE THE COP AND ANYONE WITH THEM THE EVIL EYE RIGHT BEFORE THE SERIOUS ADMONSIHMENT COMES. LOL.
 
tajidragon said:
this doesn't apply to you OP but all of the above brought back memories. i was sitting waiting for a bus. already knew Md. law and the knife i had i carried openly on my side. Yet, because many Leo's are trifling as duck, particularly in my city i devised a edge to defeat them.
these two cops actually played good cop bad cop, I know they thought it was funny. but i did not. one talked to me nice and calm and asked me questions. the other was telling me to shut the fuck up. while i was being calm i also knew they were cowards as many are in Baltimore to include a ton of cops lol!
so, what i did was take my cols steel master hunter sheath which was all black btw. and i wore black/dark clothing most of the time. I SEWED ON BRIGHT ORANGE AND YELLOW SAFETY VEST MATERIAL. I KNW DAMN WELL WHAT THE JUDGE IS GOING TO THINK IF A COP BRINGS ME IN.
OFFICER YOU'RE WASTING MY TIME WHEN IT'S CLEAR YOU COULDN'T MISS HIS KNIFE EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS A KNIFE. IT'S STANDS OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB... TAHOSE JUDGES GET MAD AS FUK AND WILL GIVE THE COP AND ANYONE WITH THEM THE EVIL EYE RIGHT BEFORE THE SERIOUS ADMONSIHMENT COMES. LOL.
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I used to live in Mt Washington. I miss Baltimore. I spent many years as a police officer in MD. I can’t think of ever locking someone up because of them carrying a knife. Guns yes, knives, no.
 
My understanding is that concealed means hidden from sight but immediately accessible. So a backpack/suitcase/trunk of car should be ok. I am not a lawyer.
 
I read a case of a self defense instructor was carjacked and he ended up reaching back into the back seat where he had set his backpack. He had a knife sheath mounted "outside the backpack" with a full size combat type blade, he proceeded to "poke" the assailant in the neck. The assailant stumbled away from the car and bled out in the street, the victim was never charged because he had never concealed the knife at any time. My belief is he knew that might come up one day and researched how to take his knife to and from his classes without being in possible violation of any laws. So while it may not look how you might like it to , perhaps outside the backpack would be legally safer for you. This was Cali a number of years ago.
 
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Letter of the law is really going to be the question, and previous case law will be a factor. I've lived in places where a knife in a backpack is not "concealed" because it is "in transit" but you never know if you are the case that someone wants to use to make a point. Trying to predict that is, in my opinion a fool's errand. If you are the sort of person who is likely to win a court case (white, middle to upper class, educated, etc) then take that risk, if you are not (lets be real folks, fair is not a factor in this game) then you probably need to cross more "T"s and dot more "I"s to have that same outcome.
 
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