Is a Hinderer XM 18 considered a gravity knife in California

[cofade2black]

hey guys I have asked this question before, I live in Clovis CA. I purchased a flipper version of the a 3 inch xm18. I have not received the knife yet, but I have seen on you tube people flicking the blade out with just force. a lot of money went into this knife and I would not want law enforcement to take it. does any of you xm18 owners live around my area ever had a problem, or any of you law enforcement guys or girls in CA give me some info.
thanks ahead of time

 

[matt123abc]

I am neither law enforcement, nor from California, but my understanding is that it is not considered a gravity knife, because it has a mechanism to help hold the blade in the hand, ie detent ball.

 

[cofade2black]

thank you matt, I am just worried, I think laws have a place for knives. I attend to use it as a tool and very expensive for a law enforcement take it away because you can flick it out with one hand, prob to keep for themselves. there are good officers as well as crooked ones

 

[claycat]

I feel the risk you run is not the legality but the crooked cop on the take for himself.
having said that, i'm in s.f. have a xm18 3.5 that i sometimes carry.
I think it more the length of the blade than the opening mechinism excluding autos
so if I'm under 4", 3.5 to be on the safe side then i feel pretty comfortable runing into law inforcement w/o any hassle.
The magic answer is "I carry this as a tool for work" or " to open boxes, cut food, envelopes" but NOT "protection or self defense"
carry and enjoy using it!!!

thank you matt, I am just worried, I think laws have a place for knives. I attend to use it as a tool and very expensive for a law enforcement take it away because you can flick it out with one hand, prob to keep for themselves. there are good officers as well as crooked ones

 

[matt123abc]

I feel the risk you run is not the legality but the crooked cop on the take for himself.
having said that, i'm in s.f. have a xm18 3.5 that i sometimes carry.
I think it more the length of the blade than the opening mechinism excluding autos
so if I'm under 4", 3.5 to be on the safe side then i feel pretty comfortable runing into law inforcement w/o any hassle.
The magic answer is "I carry this as a tool for work" or " to open boxes, cut food, envelopes" but NOT "protection or self defense"
carry and enjoy using it!!!

I agree with this, I would carry a copy of your local knife laws in your wallet. If a cop ever tries to take your knife, pull out the copy of the laws and tell him your knife is in compliance with all the laws. If he is just a messed up cop trying to steal your knife, that should definately scare him off.

 

[killgar]

That knife has a ball-detent which is designed to hold the blade in the closed position. According to the law in California, the very presence of the ball-detent specifically defines it as NOT a "gravity-knife". Carry it with full confidence that you are in compliance with the law, STATE law anyway.

I wouldn't worry about cops. I'd say there's far more chance of you losing the knife than having it confiscated.

 

[cofade2black]

thank you killgar, I talked to plaza and they told me the knife is perfectly legal, just be advised guys always consider your knife as a tool for work. if a police officer ask you what the knife is used for, never say it is used for self-defense. This would classify your knife as a weapon and not a tool. as bogus as laws seem on knives, lawmakers are making it hard for the good citizens to own anything.

 

[bld522]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but the question of whether an XM is a gravity knife arose again in a recent thread based on a post Rob Orlando made, to wit:

"Rick designed the knife with 3 opening methods, flipper, thumbstud and inertia, a stiff detent will eliminate the inertia and possible the thumbstud for some folks and that is not how they were designed."

Source: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...their-Hinderer-knives?p=13587723#post13587723

If I interpret Rob's post correctly, the XM is purposely designed to overcome inertia WITHOUT THE USE OF AN EXTERNAL MODALITY (e.g., flipper, hole, thumbstud, spring, etc.). Regardless of the fact that it incorporates a ball detent, how does that not make it a gravity knife?

 

[killgar]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but the question of whether an XM is a gravity knife arose in a recent thread based on a post Rob Orlando made, to wit:

"Rick designed the knife with 3 opening methods, flipper, thumbstud and inertia, a stiff detent will eliminate the inertia and possible the thumbstud for some folks and that is not how they were designed."

Source: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...their-Hinderer-knives?p=13587723#post13587723

If I interpret Rob's post correctly, the XM is purposely designed to overcome inertia WITHOUT THE USE OF AN EXTERNAL MODALITY (e.g., flipper, hole, thumbstud, spring, etc.). Regardless of the fact that it incorporates a ball detent, how does that not make it a gravity knife?

I will direct you to California penal code 17235. That is the specific statute that defines what a gravity knife is, and what makes a knife not a gravity knife, under California law.

As it was explained to me by my attorney, the simple fact that a folder can be opened by a flick of the wrist (inertia) does not make it a gravity knife. As long as the knife has a ball detent or other feature that produces resistance that must be manually overcome in order to open the knife, then it is not a gravity knife under the law. There is nothing in the CA penal code that says exactly how stiff a detent must be to make it a legal knife.

A few years ago there was a case here in California (the People versus Gilbert R.) that is directly on this point. A young man was stopped by the police for suspicion of graffiti, he was carrying a folding knife. The officer was able to easily open the knife with a flick of his wrist, he determined that it qualified as a "switchblade" under the law, and the young man was arrested for possession of a switchblade.

Both the prosecutor and the judge deciding the case (juvenile court, no jury) agreed that the knife qualified as an illegal switchblade because it could be easily opened by a flick of the wrist, and the young man was convicted. But a higher court overturned that conviction stating that because the knife had a ball detent that it was exempt from the states definition of a "switchblade", and was therefore not illegal to carry. The court ruled that simply being able to easily open a folder with a flick of the wrist did not make it a switchblade under the law. In short, the Superior Court ruled that the mere presence of the ball detent made the knife perfectly legal under the letter of the law. And THAT is the law of the land today here in California.

 

[bld522]

Thanks, killgar. That helps a lot. I know Axis locks tend to have weak detents, but I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for carrying a Benchmade. Then again, Benchmade hasn't come out and publicly declared that their knives are designed to be opened using nothing more than a flick of the wrist. The fact that a Hinderer employee would make such an admission regarding XMs is still a little worrisome, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Thanks again.

 

[bodog]

Almost any knife can be opened with a flick of the wrist. of course the courts will not hear that argument. also, a knife that has no substantial mechanism to keep it from opening is different than a switchblade. That's just an improperly charged crime if the facts given are true. If the person had been charged with carrying a gravity knife and the cop, on camera at the time the knife was seized, turned it upside down, gave an insignificant shake, and the knife happened to open on its own, I'm sure the fight would swing the opposite way. It's about technicalities in court and, again, if the facts are true, then the cop and local DA didn't know enough about knives to properly charge the defendant. Or maybe they thought the law was bogus and purposefully charged the man in that manner to get the law overturned by court precedent. It's happened before.

 

[killgar]

Thanks, killgar. That helps a lot. I know Axis locks tend to have weak detents, but I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for carrying a Benchmade. Then again, Benchmade hasn't come out and publicly declared that their knives are designed to be opened using nothing more than a flick of the wrist. The fact that a Hinderer employee would make such an admission regarding XMs is still a little worrisome, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Thanks again.

You're quite welcome.

And don't worry about what Hinderer or any of his employees says regarding Hinderer knives. Knife makers can say anything they want about their knives, but nothing they say has any bearing in court regarding the legality of a knife. In court, the legality of a knife will be determined by the design and function of the individual knife present in the courtroom, and how the design and function relate to the letter of the law. The words of a knife maker carry no legal weight.

 

[killgar]

Almost any knife can be opened with a flick of the wrist. of course the courts will not hear that argument. also, a knife that has no substantial mechanism to keep it from opening is different than a switchblade. That's just an improperly charged crime if the facts given are true. If the person had been charged with carrying a gravity knife and the cop, on camera at the time the knife was seized, turned it upside down, gave an insignificant shake, and the knife happened to open on its own, I'm sure the fight would swing the opposite way. It's about technicalities in court and, again, if the facts are true, then the cop and local DA didn't know enough about knives to properly charge the defendant. Or maybe they thought the law was bogus and purposefully charged the man in that manner to get the law overturned by court precedent. It's happened before.

In California law (CA pc 17235), the term "switchblade" is a term used to refer to a variety of illegal folding knives. There are a few different types of folding knives that are illegal in California, "gravity knife" is one of them, and they are all referred to as "switchblades" regardless of their individual design. There is no difference or distinction between "switchblades" and "gravity knives" in the California penal code.

In it's various definitions of what a "switchblade" is, CA pc 17235 states, among other things, that a knife with a blade "two or more inches in length" that can be opened by a "flip of the wrist" is a "switchblade" under California law. However, 17235 goes on to say that if a knife can be opened "utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade" and if that knife "has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade", that the knife is NOT a "switchblade" under California law.

To put it simply, as long as the knife can be opened using thumb pressure on any part of the blade, and as long as the knife has a ball detent, then it is legal, even if it can be opened using a flip of the wrist. That little ball detent might seem like a tiny, insignificant part of a knife, but it has great significance within California law.

As for the case of the People of California vs. Gilbert R., anyone with a search function on their computer can look up that case and read the details for themselves.

 

[RDA]

And don't worry about what Hinderer or any of his employees says regarding Hinderer knives. Knife makers can say anything they want about their knives, but nothing they say has any bearing in court regarding the legality of a knife. In court, the legality of a knife will be determined by the design and function of the individual knife present in the courtroom, and how the design and function relate to the letter of the law. The words of a knife maker carry no legal weight.

Don't tell him that, he has been beating the "Rob Orlando stated the XM is a gravity knife and I have saved the comment to use to my advantage in the future" for an untold number of posts despite the fact that Rob stated the XM allows INERTIA opening (and never said gravity despite his multiple attempts to twist Rob's words), now resurrecting a two year old thread to beat the drum a little more...

 

[jmclfrsh]

I think they just wanted to teach the graffiti guy a lesson and pin anything on him they could find.

 

[BlackKnight86]

Don't tell him that, he has been beating the "Rob Orlando stated the XM is a gravity knife and I have saved the comment to use to my advantage in the future" for an untold number of posts despite the fact that Rob stated the XM allows INERTIA opening (and never said gravity despite his multiple attempts to twist Rob's words), now resurrecting a two year old thread to beat the drum a little more...

This is correct. BLD522 got the same answer in another thread that he got here; he just declined to accept it, and apparently figured he'd get a more "acceptable" response here.