Is Borax being phased out in forge welding?

Tom Lewis

Tom Lewis

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Feb 24, 2000
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I know a lot of knifemakers have gone from Borax to Kerosene in forge welding. The way I was taught to make Damascus when I went to a ABS Damascus class in Washington AK back in 1990 was to flux the billet with borax, then in one heat to weld the billet, draw it out, hot cut it almost all the way through, fold it over, re-flux and then back in the forge. Then the process is repeated till the desired number of layers is attained. I like 320 layers.
But, for those who use kerosene, how do you do it? Do you let the billet cool off between welding, dip in kerosene, re-heat, etc? It seems like this method would be slower and would either mean shutting the forge off between heats, or leaving it on and using up more propane.
I don't really like borax, it is messy and eats up forge lining. I would like to switch to kerosene if I could understand the process.
 
Tom, I use neither borax or kerosene. Dry weld all the way. Just weld the seams and run a slightly rich flame at welding heat. Give a bit extra soak time. After the initial press just grind off the seam welds. I do it hot. then right back in the forge. ( Note I since have not welded up the seams only on the ends.) (When cutting tiles for Mosiac I still tig weld the tiles together with no filler material.) I have cleaner welds and no mess on the press dies & in the forge floor. Once a draw out and ready to do the restack. Let cool off and surface grind. This take a little extra time but the reward is I have a lot less waste. Check out the link below my signature line. Around page 2 of the WIP it shows my process.

Hope that helps

Bing
 
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I've asked the borax question many times and never got an answer !! One reason I asked is that I'm familier with borax steels which are used in small amounts to i ncrease hardenability of steels in small [.003-.005 %] Borax has been used as a flux for at least 1200 years ! and nobody seems to know.
 
Tom Lewis said:
I know a lot of knifemakers have gone from Borax to Kerosene in forge welding. The way I was taught to make Damascus when I went to a ABS Damascus class in Washington AK back in 1990 was to flux the billet with borax, then in one heat to weld the billet, draw it out, hot cut it almost all the way through, fold it over, re-flux and then back in the forge. Then the process is repeated till the desired number of layers is attained. I like 320 layers.
But, for those who use kerosene, how do you do it? Do you let the billet cool off between welding, dip in kerosene, re-heat, etc? It seems like this method would be slower and would either mean shutting the forge off between heats, or leaving it on and using up more propane.
I don't really like borax, it is messy and eats up forge lining. I would like to switch to kerosene if I could understand the process.
Click to expand...
This question really peaked my interest b/c....wow, kerosene? That sounds cool!
I'll preface by saying I don't forge my own steel, so I don't have any kind of educated opinion. Just going off what I read. Found a couple online pieces on the use of kerosene flux and it sounds pretty straightforward. Soak the cold billet in kerosene before heating and it should form a carbon shell to protect from oxidation.
 
I'm a novice smith at best but from my understanding the flux stops oxidation as well as evacuating waste and impurities in the weld as the flux becomes molten and sprays out under pressure. I get that you can prevent oxidation with kerosene and you can grind off impurities and nasty stuff prior to welding but what is the advantage besides borax being a mess?

I haven't attempted enough forge welding to have any issues from flux build-up/decay/whatever it does that is negative. I guess my question is; is flux really that much of a pita to use that not using it is better?
 
Tom Lewis said:
I know a lot of knifemakers have gone from Borax to Kerosene in forge welding. The way I was taught to make Damascus when I went to a ABS Damascus class in Washington AK back in 1990 was to flux the billet with borax, then in one heat to weld the billet, draw it out, hot cut it almost all the way through, fold it over, re-flux and then back in the forge. Then the process is repeated till the desired number of layers is attained. I like 320 layers.
But, for those who use kerosene, how do you do it? Do you let the billet cool off between welding, dip in kerosene, re-heat, etc? It seems like this method would be slower and would either mean shutting the forge off between heats, or leaving it on and using up more propane.
I don't really like borax, it is messy and eats up forge lining. I would like to switch to kerosene if I could understand the process.
Click to expand...

I have found this to be the best method as well, no mess and very easy.

Richard
 
All you need to do is look at the bottom of your forge to see what innocent borax laundry soap booster does when it becomes molten boric acid. ;) As for kerosene, I use it for the initial weld each time. I then go back and use borax on the edges just in case. Suffice to say that you DON'T want to dip a hot billet in a can of kerosene. LOL
 
Does anyone of kerocene works for something like chainsaw or cable?

When you use borax, convention days to crown the stock so the flux blows out, there shouldn't be a need, but if the fit isn't really flat, would that make a difference? Seems to me like it should fit pretty close for hydrocarbon stuff, anyone have thoughts on that?
 
All you need to do is look at the bottom of your forge to see what innocent borax laundry soap booster does when it becomes molten boric acid.
Click to expand...

I'm using a coal forge at the moment. Is this true of steel and fire bricks or just fire bricks? Either way I'm checking when I get to the shop tomorrow but I've only used borax a few times so I doubt its had any significant affect on the steel at this point.

Cody I found myself staring at your avatar and realized your knife is actually your initials. Very cool man, I really dig that and would have to say that is probably one of the cooler makers marks I've seen!
 
The theory behind the kerosene or other hyrdocarbon fluid is that when you put in in the forge, it burns and leaves a thin layer of carbon soot on the surface of all of the steel which seals it off, from oxidation, for lack of a better way of putting it. My experience has been that to works very well inside he billets, but you sometimes still need to seal of the edges on the second welding pass. That is why I still use the borax, but I don't really have to worry much about the borax, slag or whatever getting caught inside the billet and forming a cold shut
Cody Hofsommer said:
Does anyone of kerocene works for something like chainsaw or cable?

When you use borax, convention days to crown the stock so the flux blows out, there shouldn't be a need, but if the fit isn't really flat, would that make a difference? Seems to me like it should fit pretty close for hydrocarbon stuff, anyone have thoughts on that?
Click to expand...
 
I have forge welded with borax, with karosene and completely dry without even welding up the seams. From my experience if the steel is ground clean and flat so that the pieces are already touching when you put it in the forge and you use a rich atmosphere you dont need flux, however if the steel is scaled or is not flat it wont weld without flux.
 
Augus, my shop made blown forge is about ten years old with a firebrick floor. I had assumed I'd be replacing the floor yearly, but one huge crap-ton of welding later it's still the original.
My guess is that if i'd paid a lot of $ for it, I'd be alarmed if there was noticeable deterioration, but I didn't so I'm not. Lucky that way I guess :)
 
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