Is forging still worth it?

Runs With Scissors

Runs With Scissors

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Dec 3, 2000
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One of the few things I've heard about forging is that it makes a stronger knife, that holds it's edge longer due to the steel particles becoming aligned and tightened through the forging process. (it's one of the few things I've heard, because I know next to nothing about knifemaking)

Now, nostalgia and tradition aside...I was wondering, with all these CPM steels, cryogenic treatments, and other advancements in technology, what forging has to offer us? Has anyone ever had an opportunity to test similar knives side by side?
 
Personally I think yes, forging is still worth it, modern super steels are expensive, a forged knife in a traditional steel will not cost as much as one in a modern super steel and will do better than a stamped knife in the same traditional steel.

A chef knife may be a good example of this, forged being better than stamped without being too pricey.

Luis
 
Stock removal works just as well unless you got some really crazy blade shape. All either stock removal or forging does is shape the blank - the accuracy of the grind, the propeties of the steel, the geometry, the hardening and tempering, and any other processes are what determine what the knife's edge will be like. It's the thing itself, not the process to get there.

In the old days before uniform clean steels, forging would remove impurities, add carbon to the steel, and could be used to mix good steel with cheaper steel into damascus that would work better than low quality steel. In modern times this process is unecessary from a preformance perspective, although it remains a cool way to shape a knife.
 
Charlie Cheesewang said:
I'm gettin some popcorn and a soda. :)
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Aww crap! whaddya mean by that? I didn't even say "Strider, Sebenza, or Emerson"!


I pretty much posted this cause I know little to nothing about knifemaking, but....I think I'd like to learn.

How do you add carbon when forging? BTW, I think that irregardless of whether or not there's anything pragmatically gained from it, there will always be a soft spot in my heart for good forged knives.
 
There actually is an advantage to forging. It is in refinement of the grain structure of the steel. What is done when steel sheets/rolls are produced at the mill does not refine the grain structure like forging does.

Edge packing and increased density is a myth. Steel does not compress when hammered, it spreads out.
 
what about forging new steels like S30V, CPM-3V or stuff like that? is it doable? harder than traditionnal steels to forge? would it give good results? is it already done?
 
I have been collecting/using knives for over 50 years, and until lately never had a good forged knife. I have all the newer CPM's, etc. in custom knives, and always wanted a good forged blade to compare cutting, hardness, edge retention, etc.
I have been going to the ABS Show here in Reno for the last couple of years but did not have the $$$ to buy any of the beautiful, best forged knives in the world til this year, and ended up bringing home 4 folders (3 for myself, and 1 for the wife). They are all made of the 1084/15N20 damascus being what almost all the knifemakers had at the show as it is like S30V is in stainless being what is hot right now. Bought these folders from 3 different makers so I could even compare from different makers as well.
To summarize this as I use all the knives I buy so I will know the difference in the steels. Now this is my first experience with forged knives but I am impressed, and now know why they are some of the best made knives in the world. They are very hard to grind if reprofiling the edges as I did on a couple to my preference, get sharp as any stainless, and even more so in my experience, and hold an edge like none other I have seen.
To me was money well spent, and also the pride, and joy of ownership, and being able to show to people even though most won't/don't appreciate all the work that goes into these knives.
My wife carries her Audra Draper "Cowgirl" everyday, and continues to say how much she likes her knife, and we are sending it, and one of mine to Gary Graley for sheaths as they did not come with one, and am using nylon/cordura sheaths at the present.
We now see what all the hype is about but we made sure they were made by the best forgers out there by buying them from knifemakers that are in the ABS.
Just my .02 cents. :)

Larry
 
Runs With Scissors said:
How do you add carbon when forging?
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Forging does not add carbon. Forging will usually result in decarburization (loss of carbon). How much depends on the skill of the smith.
 
And if you forge using coal or coke, does that not add carbon, or is that another myth?


Thomas Zinn
 
choubbi said:
what about forging new steels like S30V, CPM-3V or stuff like that? is it doable? harder than traditionnal steels to forge? would it give good results? is it already done?
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Most stainless steels are hard to forge. Chromium tends to make steel more brittle and it is more likely to crack under the hammer. Still, I have seen knives forged from 440C and ATS-34, so it can be done with at least some of the stainless steels.

As far as CPM-3V is concerned, it can be forged. I have a Bailey Bradshaw bowie with a 3V blade. Bailey told me it was a bear to make and that it went through three times the belts that the low alloy carbon steels do. Many makers feel that there is no advantage to forging the powdered steels, because they already have fantastic grain structure.
 
to my knowledge with proper heat treating you can determine what grain size of what type of carbon arrangement you want via heat treat, be it bainite, austenite, pearlite whatever. (could most definitely be wrong though)

BUT, as was stated, even if forging adds nothing to the performance of the knife, try stock removing a khukuri that has a 30 degree bend in it and is 20" long, 1/2" thick, and 2 1/2" wide... if you could find a plate that big, you'd be wasting so much steel that it would barely be worth it if forging out the shape was an option.


also, you have a bunch of cuttoff corners etc lying around, you can compile them into a new billet via forging :D it can be a serious money saver steel wise...
 
zinn1348 said:
And if you forge using coal or coke, does that not add carbon, or is that another myth?
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Yes, that is a myth. Here is part of an article taken from Kevin Cashens website.

The fire pot itself can be made of any heavy material that can withstand the intense heat of the fire. A certain amount of depth is desirable in order to get enough fire above the oxygen rich area at the tuyere. In a properly maintained fire there should be an oxidizing level or layer, a neutral area and a carburizing layer. The neutral layer is the best area for most forging. This is a good time to address the carburizing layer and the concept of coal forging adding carbon to the steel. Time and time again we in the forging crowd try desperately to inject some magical properties into the process that will produce a superior blade. I believe this is mostly a need for justifying all the extra trouble and work that goes into forging a blade. The much-touted idea of adding carbon to a blade in a forge fire is one of these attempts at justification. The carburizing area of a coal fire is fairly small and elusive in comparison to the oxidizing and neutral and you are only in that fire for enough time that it takes to heat the steel to working temperature. Any carbon that may accumulate on the thin skin of the steel will be lost when the thick skin of iron oxide peels off on the anvil. At best, if you are very careful, you may break even on the carbon content. But the odds are much more in favor of ending up with a healthy skin of lower carbon (decarb) on the outside of the steel, from forging.
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You learn something new every day...

1. The equation of a plane tanget to a surface.
2. Forging with coke doesn't add carbon.
3. Breathing underwater doesn't work, and they fish you out with a big hook.
 
SethMurdoc said:
to my knowledge with proper heat treating you can determine what grain size of what type of carbon arrangement you want via heat treat, be it bainite, austenite, pearlite whatever. (could most definitely be wrong though)
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This is correct, but forging can further refine the grain structure.
 
I have been wanting to test this out for myself for a while now. I pretty much exclusively use folders though so have been looking into getting a forged steel folder, but not damascus. I am planning on gathering up a few different custom knives of different steels and testing them out. Ultimately I would like to have a carbon steel, a forged steel (probably 52100), a high end stainless, a semi stainless (probably D2), and an alloy (Talonite).

I know that one of the advantages, supposedly anyway, of a forged blade is a differntial HT. I suppose that really it is possible on any of the simpler steels though is just most commonly seen on a forged blade. My question is does the forged vs. stock removal make a large difference for a smaller folder than just using a powder steel? As far as I can see a powder steel will give as small a grain structure as a good forged blade, or possibly even smaller. I can see where differential HT can be of use in a large FB but wonder about it in a folder which won't be prying anything.
 
With modern steels forging probably doesn't add as much as it used to, but it will always have one key difference than stock removed knives. When you forge a knife, it changes the direction of the grain so the grain flows with the shape of the knife. With stock removal, the grain just terminates into the edge.

Not to mention the fact that you can make much more effective use of material with forging. You can take a two inch section of 3/4" rod and forge a full sized knife out of it no problem.
 
Sombody might have noticed the Boker Helios in Leo damascus.

This is a good example of what forging can do.

The Leo damascus is a composition of a simple high carbon high mangan tool steel and this tank steel which is a high nickel steel.

If that tank steel would be used by stock removal, no edge would hold b/c it will roll in a second. This steel is made to take much impacts caused by the explosion of munition. It will hardly get tired but has nearly no edge qualities.

The forging process into thinnest layers translates it into a knife steel (damascus) which will hold an edge, even though it still is very very tough.

This is an example of changing the grain structure.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
It is in refinement of the grain structure of the steel.
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Forging does not do that. Grain refinement can only happen during the heat treatment cycle, and any working operation such as rolling or anything which stresses the steel either previous to, or during the martensite transformation after the soak will induce a finer grain.

The grain refinement is due to an increase in dislocation density in the stressed steel which leads to an increase in nucleation cites during the crystal transformation and therefore a smaller grain as the boundries intersect with each other faster as there are more of them and thus they have less chance to grow.

Note as well that steel types make huge differences, some steels are readily hot hammer forged and some are not. You can refine the grain of 52100 all you want and you will never reach the wear resistance of D2 or the toughness of S7. Hammer forging is mainly a shape issue. It allows for the use of steels in odd stock sizes which would be very difficult to make by stock removal.

I would be very interested in seeing a direct comparion between a stock 52100 blade by a top stock removal maker and a 52100 blade by a top forger. I offer several times to have this comparion done by Burke and Wilson was willing to grind the blades and do the heat treatment. Frankly the performance difference would likely favor the stock treatment with a full cryo and high precision ovens. If the forger had the same equipment I'll assume the performance would be near identical.


-Cliff
 
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