Is KNIFE damascus different from GUN damascus?

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Lavan

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I have always been told (and read) that damascus begins rusting the moment it is made. Supposedly it rusts where it twists and if it is also welded, rusts there too.
This is the supposed reason why it is considered unsafe to use any of the old shotguns made of damascus methods around the turn of the 20th century or earlier. They say the twists and welds will give way and let go (or possibly NOT) when fired after these many years.
Will KNIFE damascus do the same in a hundred years? Not that I'll care ...then..... but I'm curious NOW. Is there gonna be a buncha busted off knives from the toll of rust?

:confused:
 
If you think about it damascus gets its strength because it is layered.
the shotguns made from damascus is weak because the walls of the shotgun barrels do not offer this protection, because all you have is one thin layer on top of each other, like bricks, not like a wrapped newspaper. In other word the damascus used was not formed in concentric circles, but more like stacked dominoes. I hope that makes sense.
 
**damascus begins rusting the moment it is made**

I don't think this is correct. Damascus is simply 2 or more types of carbon steel (not stainless). These carbon steels will rust but what you have heard is more likely oxidation and not rust. Remember hat rust isn't always a bad think. All rust is of oxidation of course, but this oxidation is truly a protective coating as long as it doesn't go as far as pitting and deterioration.

Most Damascus is etched (darkened) to bring out the different layers. This is a controlled deterioration of some sort.

I wouldn't worry about the rust factor. Think of Damascus as 2 different colors of play dough.......its just harder.


Damascus steel has much more strength than a single chunk of steel....



Oh, think of it as steel plywood. Plywood gets its strength because of the glued up layers. Like a skate board.....

Hope I helped.
 
All steel begins rusting the moment it's made.

In fact, with the exception of gold and platinum, I'm not thinking of any metal of which this won't be true. Maybe we've got some metalurgists or chemists here who know better.
 
Plywood is strong because of how it is laminated, not because it is made from multiple layers. I have not heard about damascus being stronger than regular steel and would love to see any tests that were done that shows this.
 
I'm wrong.

There's Unununium (atomic weight 272) also.

Unfortunately, Unununium is a man-made element. Only a few atoms of Unununium have ever been made.... but none of them has ever rusted!
 
I have been a knife collector for quite some time now and like to think myself something of an expert in the field. I am also interested in guns. I find the primary difference between knife damascus and firearm damascus is that the firearm stuff has a long hole drilled in it. The knife stuff ,you will find, is usually much flatter. I'm so glad I can use my ex-spurt-tease to help those less knowledgable. :D
 
severtecher - you really crack me up.


Folded/twisted steel is folded/twisted steel.....there is no difference. If you're smart, you'll put a sleeve inside your damascus-barreled firearm....:rolleyes:

The reason you don't fire old damascus firearms is that they are collector items now. You're more likely to get a misfire because of the action, than to have the barrel blow up on you. That said, there have been stories of damascus barrels coming unwelded. Many of the ones I read about were because of a bad weld. Others were because of poor maintenance by the owner. Others were simply because damascus (under the pressure of a gun-powder explosion) can delaminate over time.

Damascus is a process, though....not a type of steel.

Kevin Cashen is fighting the battle to show that damascus can be as tough as regular steel (all depends on the heat-treat). I think a lot of knife damascus gets a bad rapp because it's very tempting to toss high-nickel steels in the fold for contrast, and this can have a negative effect on edge-holding.
 
actually, technically only iron rusts, because rust is hydrated iron oxide :D
many metals resist oxidation, such as the noble metals
they're not all suitable for knife making, mind you
 
Keith,

I may stand corrected about the layers. It was just a thought. I'd like to see tests on this as well....
 
Damascus is damascus unless it's fake damascus. Yes they sometimes made fake damascus gun barrels -just a damascus pattern etched on. But real damascus is as good as it it made , there is some that is quite suitable for modern smokless powder loads and some unsafe with anything. They also went to the effort sometimes to incorporate the company logo into the pattern !! The strength and quality of the damascus is dependent on materials used and how well it is made .[gun barrels werre proof tested usually].As for rust ,it is steel and can rust but well cared for it isn't a problem, that goes for anything made of steel. A poorly made damascus [blade or barrel]with large amounts of inclusions and cold shuts will come apart sooner or later..
 
Gun Barrel damascus isn't layered. It's typically two types of steel (or steel and iron) bars wrapped side-by-side around a long mandrel and forge-welded to form a hollow tube. It was developed because, at the time, there was no way to drill a long straight hole in a solid rod. The mandrel left a concentric hole that could be reamed and finished. The development of deep drilling techniques made damascus barrels obsolete but they persisted for some time anyway. Damascus barrels are inherently weaker than "fluid steel" barrels and, since most are 100 years old or more, they should be relegated to wall-hangar status.

Knife damascus is a multiple layer forging/welding process and, these days, is done for appearance and artistic purposes. There is no mechanical or property advantage over any of the high quality specialty steels.
 
Droppoints said:
Gun Barrel damascus isn't layered. It's typically two types of steel (or steel and iron) bars wrapped side-by-side around a long mandrel and forge-welded to form a hollow tube. It was developed because, at the time, there was no way to drill a long straight hole in a solid rod. The mandrel left a concentric hole that could be reamed and finished. The development of deep drilling techniques made damascus barrels obsolete but they persisted for some time anyway. Damascus barrels are inherently weaker than "fluid steel" barrels and, since most are 100 years old or more, they should be relegated to wall-hangar status.

Knife damascus is a multiple layer forging/welding process and, these days, is done for appearance and artistic purposes. There is no mechanical or property advantage over any of the high quality specialty steels.
Click to expand...

I was wondering if someone would speak up and say that shotgun damascus was made of a long rod of twisted damascus welded in a coil around a steel mandrel.

Today if you want to use a fine old damascus shotgun, you can ream the barrels and sleeve them with modern steel liners. Cheap guns excluded I would love to own some of the old Wesley Richards, Purdy, Holland and Holland, and some of the other top damascus barraled guns. I would be happy to shoot them with low base shells as is or sleeved with high base.

all the best,

A. G.
 
Every time this subject comes up I feel the need to defend those old damasus barreled shotguns.

I shoot my old LC Smith all the time. The gun is still in good physical and mechanical condition, so there's no reason it can't be shot with the loads it was designed for, i.e., black powder. My gun would probably blow up if I tried shooting high powered modern smokeless loads, because they have FAR more pressure than the gun was designed for. The same thing could also happen to any modern made shotgun if you load it with shells that had the equivalent of a triple charge of gunpowder. Cowboy action shooting has brought back interest in many old guns, and a few small companies even make black powder shells if you're not interested in making your own. The important thing is just to have the gun checked out by a compentent smith to make sure it's still in good condition after all those years.

Many of these old guns have wonderful balance, and old world attention to fit & finish that would be cost prohibitive today. Because so many people are afraid of Damascus barrels, their market value has dropped through the floor, so you can get an exquisitely made gun & take it hunting (with black powder loads, of course) for a tenth of what it would cost to make today.
 
As previously stated most metals oxidize as soon as they come in contact with the oxygen in the air, oxidization of iron(steel) is called rust, so yes they begin to rust shortly after being made.

I like damascus steel in my knives alot. All of mine are made by Parker edwards/ Bear cutlery in Jacksonville, Al. Their damascus is not hand hammered, it is forged by machine under 5000 pounds of pressure, maybe more if i remember correctly. This extra pressure should add to the hardness of the blade by increasing its density and creating a better bond between the two steels.

Some were mentioning that damascus steel is not as good as todays stainless blade steels. Im not sure what bear hardens their damascus blades to on the rockwell scale, or if they do at all, but i can tell you from experience that my damascus blade is as hard as the D2 tool steel blade on my benchmade 960. I believe its hardened to 59-61. It is a good bit harder than my BM 705, which uses ATS-34 hardened to 58-60 on my particular knife.

My measure of hardness is based on use. My benchmade 705 dulls under use easily, and needs resharpening often. It also nicks the blade on wires i cut and such. The damascus blade does not develop a nick cutting wires, nor does it develop much of a nick when dropped on the concrete, where the benchmade sustains quite a few deep ones. It also maintains a very sharp edge for a long time. Ive owned it for a year, and only needed to sharpen it 5 times. I cant even count how many times ive sharpened the BM..

On the edge i have read that another thing that makes damascus steel excellent for cutting is that when forged in hot coals, the carbon from the coal is embedded in the blade, and when sharpened the edge has fine carbides that aid in cutting, much like having saw teeth.

Later

Jacob Morse
 
What dasmascus is used in BM960s? Devin Thomas or thunderforge. Dasmascus is too general of a term. It's like saying Titanium in general, theres 3AL2.5V, 6Al4V, grade 1 CP, etc
 
GS, "increasing it's density" absolutely not."carbon from the coal embedded in the blade", some, probably not very much carbon may diffuse into the blade . ...Damascus depends on what you make it with [ I recently saw some titanium damascus ]. If you make it with good steels you will get good damascus.
 
Benchmade uses thunderforge for the outbounder i know, i dont know what they use for the 960 but i would think they would stick with one company they like. My 960 is D2 not damascus if i confused someone.

If i am wrong, woops. :o It was my understanding though that forging produces a denser steel than casting, which is a given to me. That statement was an assumption on my part, i just figured that if something was forged under higher pressures/temperatures the density would increase, by a slim amount of course, than a comparable forging done under lesser pressures.

I have seen damascus titanium used on bolsters and such on custom knives, but never in the blade itself. It looks pretty nice too on some that ive seen. Coloring was blueish and gold, very pretty. Dont know if it was a chemical treatment of some sort or what that brought out these colors.

Later

Jacob Morse
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Plywood is strong because of how it is laminated, not because it is made from multiple layers. I have not heard about damascus being stronger than regular steel and would love to see any tests that were done that shows this.
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The reason most damascus is stronger is because one of the two steels is often nickel or a high-nickel alloy because of how bright nickel is when etched. Nickel is very strong, so when going through the length of the blade, it obviously adds strength. This makes damascus very strong. I've never seen any tests though. There is almost no research done on the cutting performance or strength of damascus, which makes for some heated debates.
 
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