Is the Islamic Jambiyah a knife, or a sword?

Paracelsus

Paracelsus

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This thread in the general forum got me to do a little web searching to find out what the heck a Jambiyah was. Turns out they have a great deal of cultural significance. They were one of the weapons that Wootz steel was made into 1200 years ago.

In keeping with the recent trend in this forum to attempt to define what a sword is (I just love these threads even though though the question is obviously impossible to define without considering the cultural relevence of the weapon), I was wondering: Is a Jambiyah a Sword, or a big knife?

Although it is usually called a 'dagger', it seems designed as a slashing weapon like a sword.

Do any of you sword fans have a Jambiyah or know anything about their use?

Paracelsus
 
I'm going to say something that will bring joy to the masses...

I really have no idea. And by no idea, I mean not a clue.

Sorry
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[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 02-25-2001).]
 
I'd call it a knife....a big one, but a knife. In my mind a 'sword' is determined primarily by size, secondarily by use. All the jambiya I've seen here and in the MidEast have had blades less than a foot long...in my mind making them a knife. In Israel I have seen Bedouin carrying/using knives with that sort of blade shape, and also wealthy Arabs carrying jambiya but drawing them in my presence.
check out www.antiqueswords.com (LionsGate Armory); they have recently had some very nice 18-19-20th century traditional Islamic blades for sale.
just my dos centavos
 
Robert, I continue to find you to be honest, forthright, and completely without a clue sometimes
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Paracelsus, hoping Robert is laughing
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My latest reference book, SWORDS AND HILT WEAPONS, defines the Jambiyah as a dagger.
Given the curvature of the Jambiyah, I have trouble calling it a dagger.

As far as whether to call it a knife or a sword, I just wrote a response in the Sword/ShortSword topic of this forum in which I submitted that the ability to thrust, slash and parry determined whether a weapon qualified as a sword, and not size.

I note quite a variance in size of Jambiyah and in curvature, as well.
I think some larger and less curved Jambiyah could qualify as a sword if the person holding the Jambiyah in his hand thought it would successfully parry another blade commonly classified as a sword by cultural consensus.

Otherwise, Jambiyah serve as a ornamental and symbolic weapon in the knife category; a formidable weapon none the less.

------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom
If one takes care of the means, the end will take care of itself.
 
O.K guys,
maybe i can can clear it a little for you.
i reside in the area and have quite a few around me.
the jambiya is a curved large blade [7-10 inch]long that is carried on the waist.
it is not a sword and i would call it a dagger even that many times it is not double edge.
in the middle east there are several similar knives carried by diffirent tribes and ther vary in desighns according to the area.
the Jambiyah belongs to the arabien paninsula and the republics of yemen and oman.
north of there like in isreal area and syrya and lebanon these blades have less of a curve and they are called SHABARIA.
similar to the spyderco shabayia but in a fixed balde configuration and 3 times the size.
i hope it helps.
scorpio.
 
I have a weapon I picked up on a military tour in Eritrea. It is a semi-circle shaped blade, 42 inches long. The blade is 2 inches wide at the hilt and narrows to a point. The blade would be a triangle if it were straight. It is sharpened on both sides. The blade has an inscription in Tegrenian that translates, "My God is a man of war."

Sounds like the blades you've been discussing, only all grown up. You can't thrust with it like a straight blade, but the point is still a dangerous weapon. I've put holes in 5/8 inch plywood swinging it so the point hit straight on.
 
From what I have heard, the Jambiya is mostly a stabbing weapon, the curve of the blade coinciding with the motion of the arm. In dances it is generally used in reverse grip, like most traditional Asian and African fighting knives, and held in a high guard over the head. Jambiya and similar knives are also used in some silat styles.

The Eritrean jambiya-like weapon with semicircular blade is probably a Gile'. Ethiopian or Eritrean knife-fighting is also based on wrestling and reverse grip.
 
My dram of knowledge on this would class it as a knife. Daggers being a subcategory (to me, at least--I don't know enough to split hairs) of knives, I'll put it in as a knife.

My experience was rather eye-opening, though. While working with a gentleman I met on the Ren Faire circuit (who knew more about sticks, staves, canes, and martial arts than almost anyone else I've ever known), I was induced into the following experiment:

Hang a 2-litre bottle, filled with water (so it's firm, and doesn't give) at about chest level. Now, take your favorite straight, non-serrated clip-point (what this chap called an 'Occidental special') and give a good cutting slash at the bottle. Chances are good that, unless you are phenomenally strong, phenomenally lucky, or have a perfect technique, you will feel pretty sheepish as the bottle swings wildly, yet remains unpenetrated. Now, try it with a Jambiya. You'll find, after towelling off, that the cut was almost effortless, as the shape of the blade wrapped around and fed into the object. Apparently, according to his logic (and I could find no particular flaw with his thinking), it is the somewhat abrupt change in angle that initiates the penetration of the blade, and allows your swing to carry through into the object you're cutting. The same theory is the reason that serrated blades and the 'tanto point' seem to cut better in similar experiments. Each offers the target a sudden change in angle, or a point, that focuses the swing's energy into the target. Put another way, perform the same experiment as above, but stab the target, instead of cutting it. Essentially, by providing a smaller focal point for your energy, penetration becomes much more efficient and almost inevitable. By adjusting the shape of the cutting edge, you've thereby allowed it to act as a lever, and further increase your force. This is also why a pick can drive through a heavy helm, a chainmail coif, a skull, and into the gooey bits beneath. Bill Nye, eat yer heart out... :p

I hadn't cared much for the Jambiyan shape, until then...now, I'm actually working on making one...
 
A lot of good points here, and all I can add is my own DECISIVE opinion.

I'm definitely pretty sure that it's probably a knife.
(I think!)
:D
 
Hi:-)

>This thread[/url] in the general forum got me to do a little web >searching to find out what the heck a Jambiyah was. Turns out they >have a great deal of cultural significance. They were one of the >weapons that Wootz steel was made into 1200 years ago.

Some *great* Jambiyas were made in Persia especially - watered steel/mutton fat jade hilts - sometimes encrusted with precious stones/the works:-) (you don't even want to *think* about the price nowadays though:-))

>In keeping with the recent trend in this forum to attempt to define >what a sword is (I just love these threads even though though the >question is obviously impossible to define without considering the >cultural relevence of the weapon), I was wondering: Is a Jambiyah a >Sword, or a big knife?

Dagger:-) Definitely:-)

>Although it is usually called a 'dagger', it seems designed as a >slashing weapon like a sword.

Most 'Islamic' weapons were designed for slashing:-) Usually highly curved blades - when it comes to SWORDS you should search for 'shamshir' or 'kilij' and you might find some nice piccys online:-) Other types: Tulwar (India), Saif, etc...

When you're talking Middle Eastern/Arabic swords - you're normally looking at a 30 inch blade or so - strong curve, razor sharp and capable (the good ones) of cutting a man from the top of his head to the groin in one stroke:-)

>Do any of you sword fans have a Jambiyah or know anything about >their use?

Owned a couple in my time - IF you're lucky enough to know someone with a copy of George Cameron Stone's 'bible' on weapons you'll find a few pages there - there is a different style Jambiya for each country - the Saudi one is TOTALLY different to the Indo-Persian - or the one's you'll find in Morocco/etc... I'd say there are at least 10 or more styles that are so different you'll pick them INSTANTLY (check out the scabbard on the average Saudi style jambiya and you'll see what I mean:-)

John.
 
joliver, thanks for the information. I was not seriously asking if the jambiyah was a knife, sword, or dagger since it is clear from previous threads that defining those words can be perilous, problematic, and pointless. Nevertheless, this turned out to be an interesting thread. Thanks for adding to our fund of knowledge. BTW, welcome to BFC! :)

Para
 
Hi:-)

>joliver, thanks for the information. I was not seriously asking if >the jambiyah was a knife, sword, or dagger since it is clear from >previous threads that defining those words can be perilous, >problematic, and pointless. Nevertheless, this turned out to be an

True:-) This problem gets really bad when you're talking about anything from the Roman short sword to the Scottish dirk:-)

>interesting thread. Thanks for adding to our fund of knowledge. BTW, >welcome to BFC! :)

No problem:-) GREAT to find there *is* a group on the net that is seriously interested in the 'longer edged weapons' - I've been a collector for years and the older I get the *more* interested I am in what I consider to be the ultimate weapon and art form:-)

John.
 
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