I've never heard anything but good stuff about TOPS heat treatment

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Gh0zt36

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Aug 17, 2013
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of their 1095HC steel . 1095 is generally regarded as a capable steel all around depending on the heat treat . And TOPS I've heard is one of the best .

So my question is how come when heat treating 1095 the best can get it to 58-60 HRC but TOPS by their own specs give a HRC of 56-58 ? It seems their professional treatment would allow for 58-60 ??
 
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The Rockwell Hardness is only one aspect, and it is set by what the manufacturer deems optimum for use. The "as quenched" hardness of 1095 can be between 68 and 66 Rockwell depending on the quenchant used. Blades are then tempered back to the desired hardness. A 56-58 Rockwell blade would be tougher than a 58-60 Rockwell blade, all things being otherwise equal. The softer blade should be easier to sharpen as well, but conversely the harder blade will tend to hold an edge longer.
 
Craig from Tops has addresses that exact question. They want dependable tools that wont break. They run their edges at 56-58 and the spines are even softer.

He said something like, a broken knife is useless and can harm you while a knife that gets dull can still cut or be sharpened. Something along those lines.
 
I didn't find details on who does the HT for TOPS, but ESEE uses Rowen Mfg. and goes for 55-57 on all their 1095 knives. Some folks think ESEE 1095 has the "best" HT, others think they're all the same (ESEE, Becker/Kabar, TOPS, Ontario, etc.) *shrug*
Knives from these companies are generally designed to be beat on / abused, with thick edge-geometry to match that expectation (although, admittedly, I haven't used many TOPS knives). If you want improved cutting performance from a 1095 blade, you first need to acquire improved cutting geometry. I'd suggest the Becker BK16 for that. Below is a schematic I made of a few knives including an ESEE-6, TOPS BOB, and Becker BK16. I left the ESEE-6 off of the overlay image at the bottom because its edge-geometry was so horrible compared to the others - even the BOB, which thickens considerably back from the edge, is a better cutter - and the Ratmandu edge is modified from factory sharpening (which was almost non-existent), and the edges of Gerbers vary quite a bit from knife to knife in my experience. I also have handled a number of ESEE Izulas and, while the geometry is better than the 6, all have been overly thick-shouldered for their size. *shrug* The Survive! knives have some of the best geometry seen in production "hard-use" knives (consistently 0.020" or lower BTE), but that Becker is phenomenal :thumbsup: I've a couple of videos putting it head-to-head against the Ratmandu, GSO 4.7 CruV, and even a Busse Hog Muk in INFI (which has similar edge-geometry to the Becker), including bashing it through bits of steel gutter.
At ~8:00 and again ~8:40 I show the edge damage to the BK16 caused by the gutter cutting. Compare to TOPS?


Uim3OWZ.png
 
TOPS used to also use Rowen for HT but I am not sure if they still do...and they could use some thinning behind the edge on most of their models. The Pasayan 2 was about the best that I ever got from them and it was 154 cm but nice and thin. The Mil spec was also pretty good but seemed to just be an Esee 3 copy with worse handles.
 
coinbuysell said:
TOPS used to also use Rowen for HT but I am not sure if they still do...and they could use some thinning behind the edge on most of their models. The Pasayan 2 was about the best that I ever got from them and it was 154 cm but nice and thin. The Mil spec was also pretty good but seemed to just be an Esee 3 copy with worse handles.
Click to expand...
worse handles? Dang, that's typin' something!
 
Onies said:
The Rockwell Hardness is only one aspect, and it is set by what the manufacturer deems optimum for use. The "as quenched" hardness of 1095 can be between 68 and 66 Rockwell depending on the quenchant used. Blades are then tempered back to the desired hardness. A 56-58 Rockwell blade would be tougher than a 58-60 Rockwell blade, all things being otherwise equal. The softer blade should be easier to sharpen as well, but conversely the harder blade will tend to hold an edge longer.
Click to expand...


Ahhhhh ok . This makes sense on a larger chopper or hard use knife. A softer blade can take more abuse without chipping or breaking . I was curious cause I was looking for another TOPS blade . I have the TOPS joseph teti designed Survtac7 . Great blade . It actually chops better than my ontario machete .

Does a higher rockwell treatment require different equipment to do ? I'm curious because that makes sense on a larger blade but I atleast might want a higher rockwell for edge retention on a smaller blade. Like the Brothers of Bushcraft for instance because that kind of blade is going to be better suited for more refined tasks like tinder . notching and other lower impact tasks .
 
chiral.grolim said:
I didn't find details on who does the HT for TOPS, but ESEE uses Rowen Mfg. and goes for 55-57 on all their 1095 knives. Some folks think ESEE 1095 has the "best" HT, others think they're all the same (ESEE, Becker/Kabar, TOPS, Ontario, etc.) *shrug*
Knives from these companies are generally designed to be beat on / abused, with thick edge-geometry to match that expectation (although, admittedly, I haven't used many TOPS knives). If you want improved cutting performance from a 1095 blade, you first need to acquire improved cutting geometry. I'd suggest the Becker BK16 for that. Below is a schematic I made of a few knives including an ESEE-6, TOPS BOB, and Becker BK16. I left the ESEE-6 off of the overlay image at the bottom because its edge-geometry was so horrible compared to the others - even the BOB, which thickens considerably back from the edge, is a better cutter - and the Ratmandu edge is modified from factory sharpening (which was almost non-existent), and the edges of Gerbers vary quite a bit from knife to knife in my experience. I also have handled a number of ESEE Izulas and, while the geometry is better than the 6, all have been overly thick-shouldered for their size. *shrug* The Survive! knives have some of the best geometry seen in production "hard-use" knives (consistently 0.020" or lower BTE), but that Becker is phenomenal :thumbsup: I've a couple of videos putting it head-to-head against the Ratmandu, GSO 4.7 CruV, and even a Busse Hog Muk in INFI (which has similar edge-geometry to the Becker), including bashing it through bits of steel gutter.
At ~8:00 and again ~8:40 I show the edge damage to the BK16 caused by the gutter cutting. Compare to TOPS?


Uim3OWZ.png
Click to expand...


Wow , that TOPS edge geometry tho ..... TOPS has the most acute angle ? no wonder it chops so well .
 
Gh0zt36 said:
Wow , that TOPS edge geometry tho ..... TOPS has the most acute angle ? no wonder it chops so well .
Click to expand...
It has the least acute edge geometry aside from the edge-bevel of the ESEE-6, has the least acute primary bevel - it is a fat wedge like splitting maul, good for batoning branches and strong for prying but a poor cutter/slicer. Not that TOPS doesn't make knives with decent cutting geometry, they probably do, just that the BOB isn't one of 'em. It's also a bit short for chopping. *shrug*
 
Gh0zt36 said:
Ahhhhh ok . This makes sense on a larger chopper or hard use knife. A softer blade can take more abuse without chipping or breaking . I was curious cause I was looking for another TOPS blade . I have the TOPS joseph teti designed Survtac7 . Great blade . It actually chops better than my ontario machete .

Does a higher rockwell treatment require different equipment to do ? I'm curious because that makes sense on a larger blade but I atleast might want a higher rockwell for edge retention on a smaller blade. Like the Brothers of Bushcraft for instance because that kind of blade is going to be better suited for more refined tasks like tinder . notching and other lower impact tasks .
Click to expand...
Nope, no different equipment, just a higher temperature when tempering. If your “as quenched” hardness is 66 Rockwell and you desire a 57 Rockwell blade, you would take the blade out of the quench and oven temper at roughly 450 degrees F. If you desire harder steel, temper at a lower temperature, if you desire softer steel, temper at a higher temperature.
 
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Wasn't Tops the one that put out a shop tour video showing them heat treating in an open oven, judging hardening temperature by eye?
 
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