J. A. Henckels FRIODUR Steel

F

Farmer Brown

Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
206
How does the proprietary J. A. Henckels FRIODUR Steel compare to, say, CPM's S30V?

Not much data about this steel online.
 
It's 440C with cryo treatment. Very good steel in its time, can get extremely sharp and are easy to sharpen. I use a vintage 1960's Friodur kitchen knife and Friodur straight razor every day. Excellent even by today's standards.
 
My household's Zwilling Professional S Series sees alot of use, far more than all these "tactical" folding toys with fancier steels that I have - and I have yet to sharpen them.

The Cryo treatment makes all the difference?

Incredible.
 
Last edited:
cotdt said:
It's 440C with cryo treatment. Very good steel in its time, can get extremely sharp and are easy to sharpen. I use a vintage 1960's Friodur kitchen knife and Friodur straight razor every day. Excellent even by today's standards.
Click to expand...

You got a link for that? IIRC, their steel is closer to 420HC. With the proprietary subzero quench.

I have both Henkels and Forschner that date from the '70's. The Forschner holds an edge better. Neither holds an edge as well as my old 440C Buck knife.
 
knarfeng said:
You got a link for that? IIRC, their steel is closer to 420HC. With the proprietary subzero quench.
Click to expand...

I talked to someone knowledgeable about vintage knives and was told it was 440C at around 57 hrc. Henckels never acknowledged it but if you're willing to pay $90, I can send my Friodur's in for composition testing. Then we would know for sure. For knives 50 years old, I would say that they perform surprisingly well.

Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBW_KpGy9DI

This is the Friodur heat treating video. In the video it seems like they got the austenizing temp and tempering temp mixed up but 1000 C austenization, -70 C cryo, and 250 C temper with is what would make sense for 440C.
 
Last edited:
If they were able to get so much out of such a basic steel, how would this apply to fancier mixes such as S30V and up?
 
cotdt said:
I talked to someone knowledgeable about vintage knives and was told it was 440C at around 57 hrc. Henckels never acknowledged it but if you're willing to pay $90, I can send my Friodur's in for composition testing. Then we would know for sure. For knives 50 years old, I would say that they perform surprisingly well.

Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBW_KpGy9DI

This is the Friodur heat treating video. In the video it seems like they got the austenizing temp and tempering temp mixed up but 1000 C austenization, -70 C cryo, and 250 C temper with is what would make sense for 440C.
Click to expand...

those temps would make sense for a number of similar alloys, not just 440C.

Rather than stating the alloy identity as a fact, you might think about stating what you actually know, "you were told by some one you think would know that it is 440C."
 
knarfeng said:
those temps would make sense for a number of similar alloys, not just 440C.

Rather than stating the alloy identity as a fact, you might think about stating what you actually know, "you were told by some one you think would know that it is 440C."
Click to expand...

Similar alloys like what? Certainly not 420HC, though it could be another 440 steel.

Look, I'll be happy to be learning something new if I'm proven wrong, but I trust in my source, he's very knowledgeable, so here I'm going to stand by my statement that it's 440C until proven otherwise. Just trying to help another member out because nobody else answered his question. Again, $90 for the compositional test would settle the issue.
 
cotdt, I really appreciate the info.

I'm just really surprised that a relatively basic steel could take so much punishment after proper treatment.

Though I have yet to subject any of my Spydercos to actual kitchen use, I have doubts as to whether they'd weather the same type of treatment easily.
 
This does not sound like 440C to me:
http://usa.jahenckels.com/index.php?simple_view=13
ZWILLING J.A. HENCKELS exclusive high carbon, no-stain steel:
Until 1965 ZWILLING J.A. HENCKELS produced its own steel. The Company did intensive research how to optimize the qualities of steel to meet the specific requirements of the cutlery industry. Based on these findings and research, ZWILLING J.A. HENCKELS�? exclusive steel formula with the optimum ratio of carbon, chromium and other components was developed. This exclusive high carbon, no-stain steel is today used in developing all TWIN® knives.​

440C is a set alloy with a single set composition.
 
knarfeng said:
This does not sound like 440C to me:
http://usa.jahenckels.com/index.php?simple_view=13
ZWILLING J.A. HENCKELS exclusive high carbon, no-stain steel:
Until 1965 ZWILLING J.A. HENCKELS produced its own steel. The Company did intensive research how to optimize the qualities of steel to meet the specific requirements of the cutlery industry. Based on these findings and research, ZWILLING J.A. HENCKELS�? exclusive steel formula with the optimum ratio of carbon, chromium and other components was developed. This exclusive high carbon, no-stain steel is today used in developing all TWIN® knives.​

440C is a set alloy with a single set composition.
Click to expand...

Thanks for digging up the info. I stand corrected. So they made their own steel until 1965, what after? Something tells me different steels were used in Friodurs.
 
Steel performance begins with the alloy, goes on to heat treating, and depends also on blade geometry. Kitchen knives are traditionally very thin with high hardness, which makes them real good at slicing through food for a long time. Thicker blades on "tactical" folders have other uses.

But I have a Bud Nealy Cave Bear that will slice with any good kitchen knife. :)
 
" carbon steel is the oldest type of steel " That's funny as steel is iron + carbon !!
Having used Henckels kitchen knives for years I'm sure that they were not made of 440C. A or B [or equivalent] but not C.
 
Interesting info. Thanks. The copper usually only signifies that it is recycled steel that went into the batch. Copper pretty often shows up in recycling steel. It's not uncommon to see others like lead and cadmium at really low levels but they do sometimes show up. I don't know if that tester tests for them or if they aren't there.

That steel could be 420HC with added nickel or the nickel can be there from recycling ( by accident). We don't really have any way to know unless we had info coming from the knife maker showing what they contracted for as well as the comp sheets from the steel manufacturer. It still is cool to see as it does rule out 440C ( and 440A and B also) as the steel used.

Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
Interesting info. Thanks. The copper usually only signifies that it is recycled steel that went into the batch. Copper pretty often shows up in recycling steel. It's not uncommon to see others like lead and cadmium at really low levels but they do sometim I don't know if that tester tests for them or if they aren't there.

That steel could be 420HC with added nickel or the nickel can be there from recycling ( by accident). We don't really have any way to know unless we had info coming from the knife maker showing what they contracted for as well as the comp sheets from the steel manufacturer. It still is cool to see as it does rule out 440C ( and 440A and B also) as the steel used.

Joe
Click to expand...
The Mastiff said:
I don't know if that tester tests for them or if they aren't there.

Joe
Click to expand...

The handheld XRF tester used won't give a reading for elements lighter than atomic number 22 (Titanium).

Other than that limitation, it's quite sensitive. Isaac, the guy in charge at the recycling business told me they paid $36,000 US for the machine + the software library it uses to ID materials.
 
Farmer Brown said:
My household's Zwilling Professional S Series sees alot of use, far more than all these "tactical" folding toys with fancier steels that I have - and I have yet to sharpen them.

The Cryo treatment makes all the difference?

Incredible.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by a lot of use. I have the said set of knives. The chefs knife gets used most frequently but I also have to sharpen it once in a couple of months and strop it once in a few days. It is a fine steel given the price.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top