Japanese anvils, post anvils etc. - does mass under hard surface need to be metal?

Fitzhugh

Fitzhugh

Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
194
It will take me forever to save and get a real anvil, so until then...

I've got a 12 lbs sledgehammer head coming.* Other than smoothing the surface I'll work against and mounting it in a column of cement, should I do anything? I'm guessing I should flatten it and make one edge a sharp 90 degrees and the others with slight radius's? Can't be a large radius or there'd be no flat left - the ends are just under 3" across.

What about mounting it horizontally instead of vertically so there is a larger surface to work on? Do I need as much metal below the work surface or do I just need rigid mass?

For that matter, I saw a site suggesting using one of those hardened steel bench plates or jewelers' anvils, 5 x 5 x .75 thick plates mounted on cement as a small secondary anvil. That would be a larger surface, but it is so thin. Other than my fear that the cement below would promptly crumble would that work? It seemed to work for the website owner but they had other suggestions that were counter to common advise (like getting a HF ASO for a good cheap starter anvil) so I don't trust their advise without checking. What about using one of those plates but welding rebar to the bottom so it extends down into a large cement mass?

I'll look at the scrap yards but so far those I called only buy metal, not sell it. I'm sure I can find one that sells, just need to call some more.




*would be here yesterday, only seems the mailman didn't want to have to carry it and left it in the truck - instead he just left a note saying "sorry to miss you, tried to deliver [your stupid heavy box], you can drive across town and pick it up if you really want it" (well something like that, anyhow). Is it unhealthy to spend a day thinking eagerly about a sledgehammer head since it didn't arrive to actually play with? Ack, seems I was lost as soon as I started reading on this forum.
 
I use a post anvil made from 4"x4"x14" piece of unhardened 1045. It is mounted with cement and rebar in a 6"dia thickwalled blackpipe vertical tube on a 12" square base.

You could start off with a sledge head buried in cement with a couple inches sticking out. I would flatten it a bit, break the edges and round only one edge to a 3/8" - 1/2" rad. You will rarely need a sharp edge on an anvil... or at least I don't.

IMG_0056-3.jpg

IMG_0047-1.jpg
 
Thanks you two. I've been considering the one you linked to, James, but even that is a bit above what I can afford easily since I also need to get other supplies as I go. I'll probably get one in a few months.

How much does it matter how thick the metal itself is? I mean, if the whole thing is very heavy with all the weight centered below the work surface will a 1" thick plate be much worse than a 4" block? A 4" thick vs 16" thick/tall? Does all the bounce come from the upper portion or does it rely on having lots of metal below it?

I found a scrap yard that sells, just need to figure out what range of stuff would work in case I find something better than the sledgehammer.
 
I use a 4x5x18" piece of pre-hard 4140 inspired by rick ;)

DSC_0342.jpg


I have it mounted in an 8" concrete form that is set into a 5 gal bucket. I really like having this in the shop.
 
The more solid it is, the better, of course. Over the years of reading questions that pop up on blacksmithing forums from forging noobs who are trying to set up shop, the consensus seems to be that anything under 1" thick isn't an anvil, it's a spring. That being said, I have found that even a large mass that is sitting loosely on a stand will bounce and lose a fair amount of the energy that goes into swinging the hammer.

The more solidly you can anchor your chunk o' steel where it doesn't move, the better it will work.

The most common anvil I've seen in pictures and videos of third world smiths is a large sledge hammer head that is recessed into a log to the level of the eye, which is typically buried in the ground where the hammer eye is at ground level (most of the smiths are working sitting down or standing in a pit). They'll even have two or three guys swinging sledges as big as the anvil they're aiming at. So it's a small target, but solid where it won't move.

So something bigger than your sledge head will work better, but whatever it is needs to be immobile.

Rick - I'm surprised you don't have your anvil aligned with the foot of the base, as ...um, neat as you tend to be. But you probably have some esoteric Canadian tool and die reason for it.

Dperk - Aw, Rick just stole the idea from Tim Lively.

023.jpg


024.jpg
 
Wait a second. Rick, your anvil looks aligned in the top picture and out of alignment in the second. Is that an optical illusion, or are you just seeing if us Texicans can spot it?
 
Storm Crow said:
You might give this a crack: http://www.oldworldanvils.com/anvils/4x4.html
Click to expand...

HankG said:
Thanks you two. I've been considering the one you linked to, James, but even that is a bit above what I can afford easily since I also need to get other supplies as I go. I'll probably get one in a few months.

How much does it matter how thick the metal itself is? I mean, if the whole thing is very heavy with all the weight centered below the work surface will a 1" thick plate be much worse than a 4" block? A 4" thick vs 16" thick/tall? Does all the bounce come from the upper portion or does it rely on having lots of metal below it?

I found a scrap yard that sells, just need to figure out what range of stuff would work in case I find something better than the sledgehammer.
Click to expand...

That 4 x 4 is $25 of steel, $20 of shipping and $40 of markup.

You can do what Rick has shown reasonably compared to buying some anvils and you get nice sharp or radiused edges.

If you can find a scrap yard that resells to the public, you can go very cheaply.
New steel is 1 or 2$ per pound at my local fab shops and maybe 20 cents a pound at the junkyard, depends on what you can negotiate


Steel is about .3 pounds per cubic inch.

so 4"x4"x18" = 86 pounds maybe $20 at a scrapper if you can find it.
 
Does anyone HT a post anvil ? Perhaps even harden just the working face ? 4140 is a great alloy for anvils and hammers.
 
wow, I was writing up a few questions when I got sidetracked looking at James Helms' blog** Came back to this page and thought to check for new responses... glad I did cause you (1-0 that is) answered my main question. I'd priced out the cost of dperk's 4 x 5 x 18, based on what I saw for equivalent volume of 3" square... came to $315.00 !! That was just the first price I found searching prehard 4140, found 3" square on amazon.

I didn't understand that scrap was THAT much cheaper! I figured it would still cost maybe half that. I will get calling in the morning and make SURE I find a yard I can buy from.

James, I was reading a thread earlier today about people forging sitting down. That setup - oh, it's Tim Lively (probably should know who that is, but I don't) not you - still, that looks much more comfortable. Got neck problems and have trouble looking down.

We have a very active school here called the Crucible that teaches blacksmithing... they churn out enough students wanting to blacksmith, and California is so deficient in deeper history (European-based history that is), that I doubt I'll find an actual anvil at a good price. Of course I'll keep looking but you guys got me straightened out nicely. Thanks!



**I love the way your knives look and found myself repeatedly agreeing with what I read as I went through your posts on how you approach making things and why you do so.
 
Oh, Mete posted while I was typing and I was wondering that myself. I've seen some say not to worry, just weld and grind to fill any major depressions, others said non HT makes it take much more effort to forge. Problem for me is I don't weld (on my list but down a ways). I've read about heat treating anvils and seems doable, though I'd have to make a temporary forge large enough.

What overall guidelines should I have in mind in choosing steel from a scrap yard? Do I need to get something I can harden with minimal practice and equipment? Can I get away with a "sloppy" low precision HT since it isn't a knife? Meaning get the work surface past non-magnetic, keeping it there for minutes, and quenching in oil?
 
HankG, if you are really in the bay Area CA. try looking for a real Anvil on craigslist. They are just scrap metal to most californians, and for that $300 you could be in business much faster using only sandpaper and a file. I checked already and there are some nice ones.
 
I had stuck the face of mine in the forge. It did get red and I quenched it but I don't think it hardened at all. I have used and am currently searching for a decent anvil(mostly for the hardy and pritchel holes) in the 200lb range but my post anvil works very well. I have had several bladesmiths in the shop and ALL of them were impressed with it. It is super quiet. All of the mass is under the 4x4 face. I'm sure it would be more efficient, hardened, but the whole set up cost me under $40, including cement and spray paint.:thumbup:

I have to reface it from time to time(maybe once a year, barring any major misses). It has served me well.
 
I own my dream anvil and love it...

With that said---- other than it not having a hardie/hardy/hardi hole... I can't imagine there being much of anything that a bladesmith couldn't do really well with an anvil like Rick's. In fact, I would imagine it works much better than many traditional anvils, because ALL the mass is under the work surface.

Brian Ayres gifted me a big 'ol chunk-O 4140 :D that was a drop from a forklift tine manufacturer that I'm making a post anvil with. It had to have been destined for a big ass forklift... I think it's 3.5" or 4" thick by about 5.5" wide and 16" long.
 
Go with a hexagonal bar and call it a dwarven anvil. :D

http://www.speedymetals.com/pc-1301-8317-3-hex-4140-cold-finished-annealed.aspx

A big chunk of mild steel from a scrap yard will work, but it'll be soft. Not much rebound, and it'll mark easily, but you can hammer out any dings pretty easily. Harder steel will rebound more and dent less. Tim Lively's setup I pictured before is mild steel and he prefers the low rebound.

Fork lift tine is typically 4140 from what I hear, so if you can find a chunk at the scrap yard, it would also work.

Brian Brazeal has a cool anvil made from a thick plate stood on edge, with sections ground into different shapes to work as drawing fullers and angles and such.

Here's some options for hardy holes on block anvils: http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=10090

And a good postvise can work serviceably to hold hardy tools.

Rick - I don't doubt it's quiet. What's going to ring is the sticking off parts that vibrate easily, the horn and heel. A block anvil has neither. I've worked on anvils that I had to wrap the horn in a chain to make it bearable.
 
Hmmm wonder if the wife would mind me drilling a big hole in the garage and taking a full forklift tine and cementing it in place ........ :D

Ok maybe not but sounds like it would work pretty good.

Remember to keep an eye in CL and be ready to go right then. Sometimes they will pop up and if your lucky you can get one. Usually not the best deals but they can be had.
 
I spoke with Robinson of Sea Robin anvils at Batson's. He mentione flame hardening the face with a torch and using the water hose to quench the face.
 
mete said:
Does anyone HT a post anvil ? Perhaps even harden just the working face ? 4140 is a great alloy for anvils and hammers.
Click to expand...

I have a piece 4140 of 4" X 12" round I use an a post anvil. I would like to harden it but the quenching operation intimidates me. I can get the 4140 up to temp in the oven but how and what to quench it in. I have partial 5 gallon buckets of fast and medium oil. How much of a volume of oil (maybe water) would be needed and how to agitate it in my small shop environment. I cannot figure how to quench that much mass in my small shop.

I just read the post above, maybe I should try a water hose blasting on the face.
 
Last edited:
Water quenching 4140 would make me very leery. I made my own power hammer dies from 4140 (after having the basic shapes blanked out by a machinist) and heat treated them. I quenched in the slower of the two quench oils carried by McMaster Carr. On one of my combination dies, I quenched in oil, let it sit in the bucket around five minutes, and then took it out and cooled it the rest of the way in water. That was too quick, and it cracked the die. An expensive mistake!

More quench medium would be better, but if you heat only the face of the post anvil (rosebud on a cutting torch would work well), most of a five gallon bucket of medium quench oil should work. Temper at around 535 to 600 degrees.
 
OK, I'm happy.

I saw an ad on craigslist for a scrap yard titled "New and Usable Steel." I called, spoke to the guy the ad said to ask for. He was not only helpful but had some pieces he'd already pulled because people keep coming in to look for stuff to make anvils out of. He was pulling I-beam, $20 for a foot or two (don't recall), but I've read that it sucks the energy since it isn't all massed under the face unless on end - too small in this case. Still, that gives a ballpark price AND I've found a place. He said rectangular or square stock is a bit more expensive but said a foot of 4 x 6 would be about 30. I forget what steel he priced for the example but as you all said, it is way cheaper than new steel. They've got lots to choose from. He took a good while on the phone to talk to me even though I clearly am not some big sale.

Speaking of which... it's kinda off topic a bit, but part of why your help makes a big difference:
I didn't realize before but I was intimidated at the idea of walking into a scrap yard to search, not even knowing what questions to ask. Had the same thing shopping for good hardwood the first time. Some silly fear of getting that "you're wasting my time, kid" look while everyone else knows the terrain. Hell, I've not been a kid for decades. And I never have problems talking to strangers. I certainly don't care if I know less than anyone else (I'm here, aren't I?) but something about shopping at places where everyone else knows the ropes.... what a waste of mental energy to worry. Maybe you've felt that at some point or maybe not, but thanks.

I'm still not clear on what steel to look for or how to tell if it is usable if they don't know the type of steel a promising chunk is made of. Can you recommend a way to check a piece?

So, in reply to above:
I am in Berkeley. From some of the comments I've seen on the forum about Kaliforeignia I can see why one might think I was kidding, but nope, I'm really here. I've been checking craigslist for anvils. I tend to see a few but they're usually quite far and way more than I can afford. Probably some decent prices but I'll have to wait a long time for one. Like looking for a job, it's much easier when you aren't desperate. With the advice here I can set up and go and then look at my leisure for an anvil. If I ever find one I can afford, great. If not, I'll still have what I need.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top