Japanese Kitchen Knife for Beginner

[cm_bushman]

I have posted a few times about getting my first quality kitchen knife, and now I have it narrowed down to two. Stainless is not a big deal for me, especially since I'm new to sharpening and have already noticed a major difference in my results on non-stainless steels. I'm looking for a general utility knife to do most of my meat and vegetable cutting, but nothing like chopping at bones or anything.

First is the Tojiro ITK 150mm Petty. I like the length (my wife and I don't want anything with a blade over 6", we're simply comfortable with smaller knives), the steel is good (white #2), and I hear Tojiro is a solid choice for the first time Japanese knife buyer. As far as I know, it has a symmetrical double grind, which is great since I'm still learning to sharpen.

Second is the Yamashin White #1 Ko Bocho 120mm, a knife I've heard much less about. This knife compares favorably with the Tojiro, with the same aesthetic and nearly the same cost. I like that it has a wider blade for finger clearance, and the White #1 steel seems to be the choice of even the topmost custom makers like Murray Carter. What I don't like so much is the shorter length (I'm using a knife with a 120mm blade now, and I wish for something just a touch longer), and what I believe is an asymmetric grind (as per a Youtube review, not sure if I can link to it), which is alien to me.

So guys, thoughts? I really wish the Yamashin, with it's wider blade and White #1 steel, was available as 150mm, which would make the decision easy, but as it stands I'm torn. Is there anything out there that looks and performs like these two knives for around $50?

 

[franzb69]

the white that is used by tojiro on it's itk series is incredibly reactive. and they say the yamashin is less reactive. so i'd say get the yamashin.

consider the dojo 180mm gyuto or the tsutomu kajihara funayuki.

but that's just my bias for blue over white carbon steel

=D

 

[cm_bushman]

Thanks for the recommendations franzb69, but I really couldn't go over 150mm on the blade. I would much prefer 150mm exactly, but the Tojiro is the only thing I've seen in that size and materials for the price. I prefer the blade height and steel of the Yamashin, and I really think it would be the perfect knife for my needs if it was 150mm. Is there anything like that out there for around $50?

I would certainly take Blue steel as well, it just so happened that White was offered on the knives I had chosen.

 

[franzb69]

Is there anything like that out there for around $50?

there are cheap j-knives on hidatool called tosa knives. they're cheaper knives made by knife makers in a place called tosa, japan. they're mostly kurouchi (black backing/soft iron cladding) like the yamashins and tojiro itk series and much cheaper. pretty hard to tell what kind of carbon steel that's used but i have a couple that's made in tosa. but not these ones exactly. and i absolutely love it. people think it's white #3 which is inferior to white #1 or #2. but i find it really good for what it is and especially for the price.

=D

they're 165mm though, but if you really measure it from the edge end to end it's really 150mm. some makers measure wa handled knives measure from the tip of the handle to the tip of the edge, so that includes the machi which messes with the actual edge measurement.

 

[cm_bushman]

165 is pushing it, but I wouldn't be out much at that price even if it were too big. I had wondered what method was used to measure the blade length on Japanese knives. Do you know if the Tojiro and Yamashin measured from the handle, making them longer than stated?

I would expect the steel to be of lesser quality on these knives, but again, at half the price, I wouldn't be so disappointed. If you've owned all of these knives, could you tell me how do these compare in hardness (I didn't see it stated anywhere), edge holding, construction quality, balance, and geometry to the Tojiros or Yamashin? Will there be a big difference in any of these aspects?

I may get the Tosa in a petty even if I end up with one of the others, it's hard to pass up at the price.

 

[franzb69]

I had wondered what method was used to measure the blade length on Japanese knives. Do you know if the Tojiro and Yamashin measured from the handle, making them longer than stated?

really varies from maker to make. some makers don't even really measure at all, they just give a general length of the knife and you get an even longer blade edgewise. they say it's a 240mm but it's really more like 255mm. i have no clue how tojiro or yamashin measures theirs.

165 is pushing it

if you use a pinch grip on your knife, then you would most likely grip onto the knife closer to the choiil than the begining of the handle so, if you do, that extra 15mm wouldn't matter. coz it'll still feel more like a 150mm length knife than a 165mm since you're gripping it right at the choil.

I would expect the steel to be of lesser quality on these knives, but again, at half the price, I wouldn't be so disappointed.

expect a not so perfect grind or a not so perfect geometry but i am still very very happy with mine. i got mine for a lot cheaper since i bought them off of ebay and directly from japan (it's closer to me). they're righty biased, that'll bother someone left handed most likely. but i am a lefty and it doesn't bother me at all. (i'm special that way, lol).

If you've owned all of these knives, could you tell me how do these compare in hardness (I didn't see it stated anywhere)

i haven't owned any of them but i've seen (videos) and read a lot of people who have owned these and none of them have ever said anything bad about these knives. except for the itk series of tojiro coz they really are super reactive compared to the rest of them.

edge holding - white steel isn't very well known for this, and i'm a lover of blue steel which holds its edge pretty darn well. the ones i have take and hold the edge really well. i'd say for something this cheap, it's one of the best knives i'll ever be able to buy in this price range.

contruction quality - all of them are made of ho wood handles and plastic ferules, so the handles are pretty soft so you can't bang those around, the plastic ferules crack (all of them) if you're not careful, but they're cheap to replace (the whole handle) if you know where to look and easy enough to replace if you wanna buy cheap handles on ebay ($9 a handle), or even somewhere else online. can even rehandle them yourself since they're just friction fit. the kurouchi finish doesn't seem to be easily rubbed off like some more expensive knives with the same finish. so i'm good with that. i might even sand the finish off just for the heck of it. since i have two. all wa handled knives (except maybe for rehandled ones) are blade heavy, specially that ho wood handles are super light but give great grip even when wet, just gotta give them a dip in mineral oil every few months.

here's my el cheapo funayuki's for you to see (one is unused)

geometry to the Tojiros or Yamashin?

can't really tell you much as i've never owned both but the yamashins have had way better reviews than the tojiro itk.

Will there be a big difference in any of these aspects?

i forgot which of the two (yamashin and tojiro) was thicker, but both are pretty thin behind the edge so that doesn't really matter coz both cut pretty well. either way, i don't think you'd make the wrong choice of getting any of them i would think.

go on youtube and check out videos of the yamashin and tojiro itk line and see for yourself. judge it for yourself and not because of the comments of the knife reviewer. =D

 

[franzb69]

oh by the way, most of these knives if not all are coated with a thin lacquer which helps with corrosion. most folks would take it off with a green scrubby and let it naturally form a patina.

here's a choil shot:

 

[cm_bushman]

I think I'm going to spring for the 165mm Tosa funayuki, thanks for all the help. I would like to get the Yamashin, but the only place who know carries them is out of stock now. For half the price, I'm not complaining.

If this works out, I would definitely like to try a Super Blue 150-165mm Santuko or Funayuki. I don't think the Tojiro or Yamashin would be enough of a step up to justify one after I have the Tosa.

Any recommendations on a Super Blue knife with similar specs to the Tosa?

 

[franzb69]

Any recommendations on a Super Blue knife with similar specs to the Tosa?

any justifiable upgrade would probably be either getting a dojo, moritaka or a takeda.

=D

beyond that it would be getting a full sized gyuto

 

[cm_bushman]

Okay, I'll set my sights on a Moritaka then, a stainless handle on a Super Blue blade seems like a wonderful idea. I'm surprised more people don't do it.

 

[HwangJino]

I suggest buying anything cheap for now, learn to sharpen and upgrade as your skills do.

tojiro is a very good beginner knife.

avoid stainless, its considered for children and women who csnnot care for a knife.

 

[stereo.pete]

My favorite entry level budget Japanese knife is the Fujiwara FKH line. I started with a 210mm Gyuto and still use it all the time, I love it!

 

[kalaeb]

Going to have to second Stereo Pete, I would take the fuji over the tojiro any day, the finish on the tojiro is rough, to say the least. Of course if you can go another 40 bucks, the hiromoto as core would get my vote, easily my favorite 150 mm knife.

 

[kalaeb]

Also take a look at the Carbonext from JCK. The 150 petty comes in at 70.00 and represents a great value with above average fit and finish for the price range.

 

[Noctis3880]

I take it you don't want anything that's shaped like a paring knife? Because that's the best I could find in that length. The Richmond Artifex 150mm to be precise. Seems like a good value at $50 with AEB-L steel(should be easier to sharpen than VG-10, but takes and holds a razor edge like carbon steels).

I would make sure you keep in mind what you use the White and Blue steels on, as another user mentioned, they're very reactive, often emitting a metallic smell and taste upon contact with certain foods like onions.

avoid stainless, its considered for children and women who csnnot care for a knife.

My M390 Chef's Knife wants to have a word with you.

I would argue that stainless knives, particularly the high carbide varieties, have their appeal in being very low maintenance, hardly needing to be sharpened.

 

[cm_bushman]

I take it you don't want anything that's shaped like a paring knife? Because that's the best I could find in that length. The Richmond Artifex 150mm to be precise. Seems like a good value at $50 with AEB-L steel(should be easier to sharpen than VG-10, but takes and holds a razor edge like carbon steels).

I would make sure you keep in mind what you use the White and Blue steels on, as another user mentioned, they're very reactive, often emitting a metallic smell and taste upon contact with certain foods like onions.

I would argue that stainless knives, particularly the high carbide varieties, have their appeal in being very low maintenance, hardly needing to be sharpened.

I think the Tosa is the knife for me. It is aesthetically pleasing to me, and cheap enough for me to not worry about it. The fact that it is non-stainless does not bother me, since I use primarily non-stainless pocket knives with no problems. The main draw is ease of sharpening, since I am very unskilled in that arena as of yet.

The Carbonext, Fujiwara, and Richmond knives have great reviews, and I've came across each of them in my search, but they're really not what I'm looking for.

 

[franzb69]

good luck with the knives. let us know how you like them.

 

[Noctis3880]

I think the Tosa is the knife for me. It is aesthetically pleasing to me, and cheap enough for me to not worry about it. The fact that it is non-stainless does not bother me, since I use primarily non-stainless pocket knives with no problems. The main draw is ease of sharpening, since I am very unskilled in that arena as of yet.

The Carbonext, Fujiwara, and Richmond knives have great reviews, and I've came across each of them in my search, but they're really not what I'm looking for.

Oh there's a bit of a difference between non-stainless pocket knives and the carbon steels in most of these Japanese style knives. As mentioned before, cutting into acidic fruits or vegetables emits a metallic scent, something I've never experienced with 1095 steel. I suspect it also rusts easier than 1095 as well, which is why I coat mine with mineral oil.

I'm not concerned about aesthetics so much as the balance. The Richmond knives are a touch blade heavy, and I prefer my knives to be more handle heavy, or just super light all around.

As for ease of sharpening, I would highly recommend looking at AEB-L stainless steel in knives. It can reach Rc 61, isn't chock full of hard carbides, and is typically used in razorblades, so you know it'll take and hold a razor edge much like carbon steels.