Japanese steels - DLC coated vs Laminate

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Kyle78

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I noticed Spyderco likes to laminate their nonstainless Japanese steels such as Superblue, Hap40, and sometimes ZDP189 in a cladding of soft stainless steel.
I would love to see a DLC coated solid hap40 or superblue delica.
What do you guys think? Would DLC be cheaper to produce than a laminated blade?
 
Definitely, unless enough were made to actually save cost on the steel. DLC is ~$10 extra
I thought cladding was done for added strength, not stain resistance, as the cutting portion of the laminate runs all the way through the blade, and is usually the least stainless.
 
My impression is that the reason that those cladded steels are used is because that's the only way Hitachi will sell the stuff to Spyderco. I could be very wrong, though.
 
Kyle78 said:
I noticed Spyderco likes to laminate their nonstainless Japanese steels such as Superblue, Hap40, and sometimes ZDP189 in a cladding of soft stainless steel.
I would love to see a DLC coated solid hap40 or superblue delica.
What do you guys think? Would DLC be cheaper to produce than a laminated blade?
Click to expand...
I have no use for DLC or blades that are laminated to "prevent" rust.
The real reason to laminate a blade (think Samurai sword) . . . well there are two
Back in the day laminating saved precious edge steel so the edge could be hard and long wearing but the rest of the blade's bulk, there to resist trauma, could be made up of iron or less precious steel.
and
the core / cutting component of the blade could be extra hard and yet the cladding could keep the core from cracking / breaking in two.

One example is Japanese woodworking hand tool blades have an extra hard layer for the edge; harness ~64-66 and yet the thicker bulk of the blade is made up of iron and the blades are regularly deformed by hammering to change the concave back into a flat surface to be sharpened.

LINK <<<<< to a demonstration of what I am talking about.
 
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On a folding knife the cladding is needed to protect the pivot and other working parts from corrosion.

Fortunately for anyone who doesn't like cladding there are tons of other folders, some also in other tool steels that are less susceptible.
 
Danke42 said:
On a folding knife the cladding is needed to protect the pivot and other working parts from corrosion.

Fortunately for anyone who doesn't like cladding there are tons of other folders, some also in other tool steels that are less susceptible.
Click to expand...

Is the core steel in contact with the pivot at the center area of the pivot ? In say a continuous three layer sheet or does the core stop short of the pivot ? Perhaps even if it is rustable steel at some of the pivot it is trivial compared to if the sides of the blade were rusting near the frame and scales.

Still though my Case CV blades make it with a little oil.
 
Danke42 said:
Fortunately for anyone who doesn't like cladding there are tons of other folders, some also in other tool steels that are less susceptible.
Click to expand...

I like cladding but I wished they would use it to reinforce an extra hard blade.

Case in point . . . my "Little Monster" which is a very thin blade, quite hard and clad for durability.
IMG_3374.jpg

I am so all about it I have purchased two more knives to cut up and put the blades into folders.IMG_4398.jpg

One in a Cold Steel Voyager

One in a 940-1
So yah . . . I think this old rusty stuff will do well for me ! ! !
IMG_4399.jpg
 
I don't think Spyderco is running their superblue or hap40 at super high hardness which is why I assumed the cladding was for corrosion resistance, not to protect the blade from breaking under use. Plus these are small lightweight foldering knives, not fixed blades or swords.

I'd like to see a delica with a solid blade of superblue!
 
Ive never seen M4 or and any american tool steel laminated. These all rust very easily. Is it just a Japanese method? What is confusing is that the edge and alittle beyond is still exposed. The most important part of the knife can still rust. If its done for strength then again the most important part, the cutting edge isn’t reinforced.
Could it be a money/ material expense thing too? Ive seen blade smiths forge weld, taco style for example, and the good expensive steel used is way less than the amount of softer steel used.
 
Sal said in another thread the Japanese models won't get dlc for a coating. I believe he said they could get pvd if coating was desired
 
115Italian said:
Ive never seen M4 or and any american tool steel laminated. These all rust very easily. Is it just a Japanese method? What is confusing is that the edge and alittle beyond is still exposed. The most important part of the knife can still rust. If its done for strength then again the most important part, the cutting edge isn’t reinforced.
Could it be a money/ material expense thing too? Ive seen blade smiths forge weld, taco style for example, and the good expensive steel used is way less than the amount of softer steel used.
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It's easy to keep the edge clear of rust.

It's not so easy to do the same for the pivot and lockface.
 
Wowbagger said:
Is the core steel in contact with the pivot at the center area of the pivot ? In say a continuous three layer sheet or does the core stop short of the pivot ? Perhaps even if it is rustable steel at some of the pivot it is trivial compared to if the sides of the blade were rusting near the frame and scales.

Still though my Case CV blades make it with a little oil.
Click to expand...
You'd had to ask Sal about the actual geometry and process of the cladding. For me it seems all win and the nice thing is that there are lots of other choices in stainless steel or even other tool steel that folks who don't like it can get the same knives with instead.

My two user examples would be my HAP40/SUS410 Delica and a M4 PM2 The M4 has some staining but it's much clearer than the HAP40 which will patina in a flash.
 
cladding is usually done for the makers preference. Sometimes the core material is too hard to stamp and the maker doesn't have a laser. Sometimes it's for more convenient grinding. The material that is clad onto the core has to be able to be heat treated with the core material. So different cladding is used depending on the core material.

I've never heard of Japanese swords being laminated. They are forge in charcoal. The iron draws its carbon from the charcoal. The maker controls where the carbon goes in the forging process. (edge has more carbon than spine, etc.)

sal
 
Alberta Ed said:
A Google search on 'making a samurai sword' turns up a lot of useful information (http://www.samuraisword.com/REFERENCE/making/japanse_swordmaking_process.htm). They were not laminated in the sense that a harder core was sandwiched between softer layers; rather, the harder steel was wrapped around a softer, more malleable core, so the hard stuff was actually on the outside.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry. You are right of course.
For the most popular, perhaps most successful method. First page shown below.
however
I was thinking of the Sanmai method which was as I described and for the purpose of economizing on precious edge steel.
Second page shown below.

IMG_4773.JPG

IMG_4772.jpg
 
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Sal Glesser said:
cladding is usually done for the makers preference. Sometimes the core material is too hard to stamp and the maker doesn't have a laser. Sometimes it's for more convenient grinding. The material that is clad onto the core has to be able to be heat treated with the core material. So different cladding is used depending on the core material.

I've never heard of Japanese swords being laminated. They are forge in charcoal. The iron draws its carbon from the charcoal. The maker controls where the carbon goes in the forging process. (edge has more carbon than spine, etc.)

sal
Click to expand...

Sal I am surprised you did not know traditional Japanese swords were almost all made with laminated steel. Even historical Chinese swords were, which many people also do not realize. Here is a chart of some of the various types of lamination used in Japanese traditional swords. When the smith would form the tamahagane bloom he would determine which parts had higher carbon and form chip them off and stack them with chips from lower carbon pieces to achieve the lamination of different hardness layers.

I always thought sanmai was based on these lamination techniques. Sanmai means 3 layers, if we look on the chart at the second last method it is called “gomai” meaning 5 layers.
3c7ef7a284fd24a8f0ab610aab9c0016--japanese-sword-katana.jpg


Wowbagger Wowbagger neat project putting those blades in a cold steel. Check out this mod done by STR.
Hammer%2Bforged%2Bwhite%2Bsteel%2Bkiradahi%2BTriad%2Block.jpg


Here is a link to the blog post.
http://strsbackyardknifeworks.blogspot.ca/2016/09/kiradashi-triad-lock-mini-ak-47.html?m=1
 
Sal Glesser said:
I've never heard of
Click to expand...

Listening to what people say can be confusing and misleading.
I find text books more reliable. Perhaps there are inaccuracies but at least the author had to spend very significant time and effort refining their scribblings. And some times they are even reviewed by peers.
Unlike my posting which can be highly suspect and slip shod.

Thanks guys for keeping me at least groping around in the ball park. I now realize I was in danger of wondering off into the parking lot.
 
Hi Lapedog,

I have watched Maguroku Kinenoto make a Katana in the "traditional" manner. He is the number 1 ranked sword maker in Japan. There was no cladding involved. Perhaps the swords that were made for WW 2 Japanese soldiers were clad?

Spysmasher,

We have used clad material in Japan for all of the reasons listed. The US made clad material, really wasn't San Mai, the powders were mixed and sorted in the can before hipping.

Our clad material would be considered San Mai, but the name "San Mai" is trademarked by Cold Steel and we do not use the term to honor their trademark.

sal
 
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