Japanese style blades

D

dcpopo

Joined
Aug 20, 2004
Messages
144
Hi All,

I suffered a very severe injury and ended up having hand reconstruction. My strong hand slipped from the handle down across the blade on a knife that did not have any type of guard.

I've been really interested in many of the Japanese style knives that seem to lack any sort of guard. They look very nice and they seem to be designed as defensive/ fighting knives.

LOL. I obviously did it wrong the first time... What should I know about these designs?

Thanks and regards
 
They need a Tsuba/guard of some kind from the sounds of it. Sorry to hear that. I have had my fair share of nasty wounds. I prefer the Japanese style blades over others as well. Karambit and Traditional Tanto are my two top favorite. CRKT makes a nice fixed blade in the traditional tanto style called the Hissatsu. Dan Keffler could hook you up with a perfect knife for your needs. He is a custom knife/sword maker here on the forum and makes great stuff. Give him a try. I would advise buying a Karambit style knife with a finger ring for your hand while going through the healing. It gives you the dexterity and comfort/grip that you need and should hurt your hand the least.
 
Thank you for the reply, I will look into what you mentioned.

It's been 4 years since the surgery. I have about 75% function. I have actually been looking at Karambits lately.

Thanks again
 
dcpopo said:
Hi All,

I suffered a very severe injury and ended up having hand reconstruction. My strong hand slipped from the handle down across the blade on a knife that did not have any type of guard.

I've been really interested in many of the Japanese style knives that seem to lack any sort of guard. They look very nice and they seem to be designed as defensive/ fighting knives.

LOL. I obviously did it wrong the first time... What should I know about these designs?
Click to expand...

What you should know is that if a knife has no guard...don't stab with it. They are not designed for stabbing, and you run the risk of having what happened to you already happen again.

(Though, like with a pukko, you could cup your hand over the butt of the handle if you need to thrust instead of slash/slice/cut....)
 
One of the puzzling aspects of guardless knives is that logically it does present a risk to the user when used in a stabbing motion.
This is evident from both common sense and the OP's unfortunate incident. Russia even prohibits the sale of knives over a certain size
that have a guard without a hunting permit, an idea I believe is based on the notion that a knife with a guard could be used for "stabbing".
Yet, historically many Tanto and Kaiken in Japan did not have a tsuba (guard). Some even in full koshirae only had an aikuchi, although many
of these may have been more for presentation/ceremonial purposes. But the Tantos owned among the non-samurai class people (ie; peasants who were not permitted to carry swords) were carried in their shirasaya hidden and that's how they were used; for cutting, slashing and stabbing, with no guard and
just a wood handle. This has remained a mystery to me.
 
With a Japanese style blade with no guard you place the butt of the handle in your palm if stabbing is needed. Sometimes handles are made shorter to accommodate this technique for stabbing.
 
You need a Street Samurai.



[video=youtube;aBFSDEbS51o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBFSDEbS51o[/video]
 
Pull. ;)

Without knowing the knife you bought, try gripping hard with your pinky and ring finger. Grab using medium pressure with your middle and pointer.
 
The tsuba was to become more than just a finger guard
But an embellishment and a highly priced art form.
IMO, something poor peasants could only dream about.
Anyway as in all feudal systems
weapons were strictly for the warrior class and nobility.
In some martial arts or sd circles, it is thought that a knife guard
Would snag or catch upon loose clothing upon quick drawing of a knife.
So there are fighting knives with out guards build to prevent this.
One knife in mind would be the sog knives pentagon.
Which some or a great majority of sensible people
might see as a grave prospect of double jeopardy instead :-)
 
I believe I read somewhere hat japanese knives/weapons were mostly for slashing, stabbing being rare.
 
HwangJino said:
I believe I read somewhere hat japanese knives/weapons were mostly for slashing, stabbing being rare.
Click to expand...

dingdingding!

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Japanese blades in general (katana's, kaikens, tanto's) FIRST and foremost use was intented for slicing. Even their slashes were meant to be slicey.

A few of them incorporated the need for the occasional stab (like Katana's and Tanto's) incorporating the tsuba as a style of guard. But still they were only meant for when a use had no choice but to stab it seems to me.

I'm no expert cutter. But everything I've seen from cutters shows that they slice and slash with a slicing motion more than they CHOP and STAB.
 
Well I contacted my friend who is a Shinkage-Ryu practitioner for his views, and he told me that
Tanto/Kaiken were used for stabbing, especially by women carrying out a sanctioned "Adauchi" (basically a revenge/retribution killing) because women did not carry larger swords. In that case
since death was the goal, the handle was pressed from behind with the other hand. This corresponds to Avigil's post above. He also said that Tantos in Shirasaya were more often used to slash rather than stab among the commoners was the same reason that weapons are more often used to threaten, deter and injure rather than to actually kill. Makes sense.
 
When this accident occurred were you doing a necessary task or were you making your own Cold Steel videos? I'm not judging, lord knows I've done some dumbass things with a knife before, but generally when I see a story like this a little investigating leads to the finding that it wasn't the knife that was at fault.

If you're just going to cut things or even some light stabbing of squishy objects, like the neighbor should your baby be born with a cleft chin, a trait neither you or your wife have, a knife without a guard should be more than adequate. For teaching plywood adorned with chain mail what's what on the otherhand, a guard and gloves are probably needed.
 
Speaking as ex law enforcement ( amongst other jobs including 30 years as a Correctional officer) I'd say a fair amount of stabbings result in wounds to the hand of the person doing the stabbing. Different from "defensive" wounds to the hands and forearms of the person getting stabbed while trying to keep from getting stabbed the wounds are the result of the knife stopping on a rib while the hand keeps going forward. The location of the wounds tell you what grip the person had while holding the knife. Tips snapped off on the rib or other bones isn't unheard of as well. This also shows that a considerable amount of knives involved aren't designed with "combat" in mind.

In a stabbing incident one thing we looked for was the wounds on the hand and if they were there they got photographed. I won't give an estimate of what percentage had these cuts but it was fairly common. Sprained or torn ligaments or tendons happen as well in the knife hand or arm but they are easier to hide than wounds.

Just a thought. I don't buy knives as weapons typically but I always attempt to get a design that reduces the risk of self injury during hard use.
 
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KenHash said:
Well I contacted my friend who is a Shinkage-Ryu practitioner for his views, and he told me that
Tanto/Kaiken were used for stabbing, especially by women carrying out a sanctioned "Adauchi" (basically a revenge/retribution killing) because women did not carry larger swords. In that case
since death was the goal, the handle was pressed from behind with the other hand. This corresponds to Avigil's post above. He also said that Tantos in Shirasaya were more often used to slash rather than stab among the commoners was the same reason that weapons are more often used to threaten, deter and injure rather than to actually kill. Makes sense.
Click to expand...

I would also say that, back when such knives were actually carried and used for such purposes in Japan, what we might today consider a relatively minor or 'less lethal' wound could still be a potential death sentence prior to modern medicine. Back then, anywhere in the world, without proper medical care, even some fairly minor cuts could have often resulted in infection/blood poisoning with no possible treatment.

Jim
 
Adam is correct. For stabbing, a palm-grip is used.
I'm still surprised how many knuts do not know this by now.
rolf
 
James Y said:
I would also say that, back when such knives were actually carried and used for such purposes in Japan, what we might today consider a relatively minor or 'less lethal' wound could still be a potential death sentence prior to modern medicine. Back then, anywhere in the world, without proper medical care, even some fairly minor cuts could have often resulted in infection/blood poisoning with no possible treatment.

Jim
Click to expand...

That's a very good point.
 
I was at a local knife show with a bud and he picked up a kwaiken and said how much he really liked the knife but he put it back down. He told me he'd buy it but the handle was too short. I showed him the correct grip and he bought the knife.
rolf
 
I hope I don't come across as though I am lecturing anybody especially when somebody has hurt themselves badly but I think having a tsuba is a nice insurance but speaking from the perspective of a kendo player (we along with cutting we do stab our opponent's throat). I never really had the need to rely on a tsuba to stop my hand sliding forward. On occasions sure my hand does slide forwards a bit but not to the point it would cut into my hand (or where I would with the equivalent of where a blade begins on a katana). I think having a correct grip goes a long way here. It is generally accepted and taught in our field that the correct grip is to grip using the little finger and the ring finger. Other than this being able to generate a lot of wrist snap thus cutting power I also find that the two fingers 'anchor' the hand onto the grip by cradling the grip from the side. Which prevents the hand from sliding forward. It's rather difficult to describe in words but golfers also has a similar idea with their left hand (if you're right handed).

The most useful function of a tsuba in my experience is when we fight in very close quarters and trying to gain an advantage over the opponent tactically. Its called tsuba-zeriai (which roughly translates to tsuba competing).Where we literally try and get the upper hand to give us an advantage when striking.

Again I hope I don't sound like I am an authority on the subject as there are far more qualified individuals out there who could speak for the better but I thought I should share my opinion through my experience. I wish you a speedy recovery.

EDIT: sorry I just recognised shotgun has covered this already. Sorry shotgun.
 
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