Japanese Tanto

H

hotempered

Joined
Aug 22, 2020
Messages
57
According to AoiJapan this dagger dates back to the late Edo period (1603-1868). The sheath/scabbard is not usual for that period. I understand from limited study that carrying of edged weapons was outlawed after the samurai period in Japan. It would make sense that someone wanting to carry might have had the knife fitted for the fan-like scabbard for concealment.
Anyway, I'm wondering if the knife would qualify for re-polishing and possibly re-fitting with proper accoutrements from an economic standpoint. All comments welcomed.
Well I've had it with flickr. I see that the pictures did not load. They can be seen in the request for identification thread (first response, not original post). Sorry for the inconvenience.

view-source:https://www.flickr.com/photos/189814211@N05/50331168917/in/dateposted-public/view-

source:https://www.flickr.com/photos/189814211@N05/50331163387/in/dateposted-public/view-

source:https://www.flickr.com/photos/189814211@N05/50330997811/in/dateposted-public/

view-source:https://www.flickr.com/photos/189814211@N05/50316432588/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/189814211@N05/50317100221/in/dateposted-public/
 
The cracked scale is more of a concern. The blade can be gently polished up by hand, even lightly reprofiled at the tip, no biggie.
I don't know about its age but it certainly is a very interesting piece. Even if it's "only" 19th century.
 
I've always heard "Preservation; Not "restoration" is always best." from auction houses, and on "ANTIQUES ROADSHOW"
More than once I saw on ROADSHOW something the owner "restored" and knocked the value to a fraction. Last guy had a antique dresser. He refinished it because the original finish was "ugly". Estimated Auction Value with original "ugly"finish: $250,000 to $300,000 USD.
Estimated auction value after refinishing: "$1,000 to $1,200 USD.
(owner kept saying "But it was really ugly!!!!")
 
I would find a local sword group in your area and get a more uh, educated opinion.

That said, it looks too new to be old. I've never seen an older blade exhibit the characteristics your blade has. No rust or file marks on the tang suggest to me Showa or newer. Hard to tell with just the pics.
The again unusual mune; never seen a tanto or dagger like that.
I think Edo tanto are rare as daisho had come into popularity. The mounts though would suggest Tokugawa/Edo; the hidden design was common.
The absence of a habaki I think is unusual. I had an aikuchi style tanto and it had one although my blade was koto.

Another thing to consider is that many blades no longer reside in their original mounts.
I've seen many Showa and newer blades in older mounts.
The more I think about it, the more the blade seems contemporary, almost as if it was ground.
Can you see grain in the blade? like Damascus? Can't tell from the images.
The hamon almost always flips back to the mune at the tip, a straight hamon to me, is a western characteristic.

I wouldn't do a full polish. Maybe half polish just to see the grain and hamon.
If it turns out to be a new blade, Showa+, maybe just hit it with some 2000-3000 wet sand paper?
My tanto also had chips in the edge; I always wondered how they came to be! I'd leave it just for conversations sake.
Also remember that if it is a real blade, full polish sometimes reveals flaws.
Good luck!
 
Last edited:
Off topic, what's the best way to preserve older Japanese blades? Is renwax ok?
 
You can buy a sword kit. Comes with oil and hardware.
Also comes with the uchiko ball, what I called the pompom.
Its filled with dust from the final polish step. You hit the blade with the ball and some of the dust sticks to the blade.
Clean it off and you are good to go.

DSC01722-2_1080x.jpg
 
jideta said:
I would find a local sword group in your area and get a more uh, educated opinion.

That said, it looks too new to be old. I've never seen an older blade exhibit the characteristics your blade has. No rust or file marks on the tang suggest to me Showa or newer. Hard to tell with just the pics.
The again unusual mune; never seen a tanto or dagger like that.
I think Edo tanto are rare as daisho had come into popularity. The mounts though would suggest Tokugawa/Edo; the hidden design was common.
The absence of a habaki I think is unusual. I had an aikuchi style tanto and it had one although my blade was koto.

Another thing to consider is that many blades no longer reside in their original mounts.
I've seen many Showa and newer blades in older mounts.
The more I think about it, the more the blade seems contemporary, almost as if it was ground.
Can you see grain in the blade? like Damascus? Can't tell from the images.
The hamon almost always flips back to the mune at the tip, a straight hamon to me, is a western characteristic.

I wouldn't do a full polish. Maybe half polish just to see the grain and hamon.
If it turns out to be a new blade, Showa+, maybe just hit it with some 2000-3000 wet sand paper?
My tanto also had chips in the edge; I always wondered how they came to be! I'd leave it just for conversations sake.
Also remember that if it is a real blade, full polish sometimes reveals flaws.
Good luck!
Click to expand...
As I mentioned in my original post re: origin, the patina from the blade and rust from the tang was, regrettably, removed by prior owner.
jideta said:
I would find a local sword group in your area and get a more uh, educated opinion.

That said, it looks too new to be old. I've never seen an older blade exhibit the characteristics your blade has. No rust or file marks on the tang suggest to me Showa or newer. Hard to tell with just the pics.
The again unusual mune; never seen a tanto or dagger like that.
I think Edo tanto are rare as daisho had come into popularity. The mounts though would suggest Tokugawa/Edo; the hidden design was common.
The absence of a habaki I think is unusual. I had an aikuchi style tanto and it had one although my blade was koto.

Another thing to consider is that many blades no longer reside in their original mounts.
I've seen many Showa and newer blades in older mounts.
The more I think about it, the more the blade seems contemporary, almost as if it was ground.
Can you see grain in the blade? like Damascus? Can't tell from the images.
The hamon almost always flips back to the mune at the tip, a straight hamon to me, is a western characteristic.

I wouldn't do a full polish. Maybe half polish just to see the grain and hamon.
If it turns out to be a new blade, Showa+, maybe just hit it with some 2000-3000 wet sand paper?
My tanto also had chips in the edge; I always wondered how they came to be! I'd leave it just for conversations sake.
Also remember that if it is a real blade, full polish sometimes reveals flaws.
Good luck!
Click to expand...
As mentioned in my original post requesting identification, the patina on the blade and rust on the tang were, unfortunately, stripped from this knife. Attached are a few shots of various sections under a microscope and magnification. See if this helps any. Again, I apologize for posting pictures of other knives with this post. I just don't know how to cull them and post only the current ones.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/189814211@N05/?
 
Rich S said:
IMHO, best place for more advice is the Nihonto Message Board. Experts from Japan and around the world.

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/

Rich
Click to expand...

this


The grain in Japanese sword steel is very fine; unlike Damascus where you can count the layers, Japanese steel is folded maybe 1000x. The grain can be difficult to see even when the blade is clean.
I'll say that from what I see, I still think the blade is contemporary. Showa or newer, maybe a war blade though the mounts don't match and are interesting. War blade meaning it was not forged or made by traditional techniques; made by contemporary mass production methods.
The lack of rust on the tang, not surface rust but corrosion is suspect (see how the tang surface looks the same as the blade surface? most tangs are rough, they never bothered to finish that area). I think all of the shinto or shinshinto blades I saw had corrosion on the tang. The only clean, surface rust tangs I saw were on Meiji/Showa and later blades.
Usually there are file marks or some kind of markings there too. The mekugiana, the hole for the pin looks strange too. Usually a clean hole.


Post it up on the Nihonto site. Even if it's not an older blade they'll want to see it.
My experience is very limited.
The study of Japanese swords is a lifelong undertaking.
 
Thanks for following up Jideta. I did post on the suggested forum (you can find my post and replies there under the title "Japanese Tanto") and I, earlier, also asked aoijapan and it appears agreed that the blade is from the late Edo early Meiji era. Is that what you mean by "modern"? I suppose it would be given the history of Japanese arms and edge weapons.
 
Sorry but I was a blade snob!
Modern to me was post shinshinto so yes, Meiji or Showa was modern in my mind.
I tried to collect only koto or shinto blades; what ever my wallet could handle!
I'm interested to see what the folks over on the Nihonto site have to say.
 
It "might" make your search easier by identifying your knife as a Shikomi Gatana, which refers to a bladed weapon hidden or disguised, as in this case a Sensu (fan).The term covers all hidden blades both Japanese including the small blade often found in the says of katana and wakizasi, as well as Western, like sword canes and umbrellas.
The general term Japanese Tanto covers a wide range (ie; tanto, aikuchi, kaiken) and although without doubt your "fan knife" is a tanto (I don't think you ever gave measurements) that term alone may not help identify your blade as it is mumei .
 
hotempered said:
As I mentioned in my original post re: origin, the patina from the blade and rust from the tang was, regrettably, removed by prior owner.

As mentioned in my original post requesting identification, the patina on the blade and rust on the tang were, unfortunately, stripped from this knife. Attached are a few shots of various sections under a microscope and magnification. See if this helps any. Again, I apologize for posting pictures of other knives with this post. I just don't know how to cull them and post only the current ones.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/189814211@N05/?
Click to expand...
Hi. You genuinely seem to be an expert on the japanee tanto knife.

I have with me a japanese military tanto found in a wreckage of a crashed Mitsubishi G3 Nell bomber way back in 1992.
Im thinking seriously of disposing it - selling it but I have no freaking idea what it would be worth.

There are no markings whatsoever. Some friend said this could well be a personalised tanto9 made by the air force crew in the plane but those friend arent experts ;-)
 
P ParangMan

-You probably meant 1942 not 1992.
-Like the US, Japan had no "Air Force" as a separate service during WWII. The G3 Nell was ordered by and used by the Imperial Japanese Naval Air Service and used until widely replaced by the G4 Betty.
-Photographs of the Tanto in question would help in any effort to identify it. Most military issued blades can be ID'd from photos.
- You stated "no markings". Japanese blades have markings (if any) on the tang. Have you removed the handle to see?
-BF rules do not permit asking for value of a knife unless one has a Gold membership or higher.

Regards
 
ParangMan said:
Hi. You genuinely seem to be an expert on the japanee tanto knife.

I have with me a japanese military tanto found in a wreckage of a crashed Mitsubishi G3 Nell bomber way back in 1992.
Im thinking seriously of disposing it - selling it but I have no freaking idea what it would be worth.

There are no markings whatsoever. Some friend said this could well be a personalised tanto9 made by the air force crew in the plane but those friend arent experts ;-)
Click to expand...
Sorry to disappoint but I'm just as ignorant about Japanese knives as you are. I only know what I have gathered here and there without researching anything myself.
 
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