Japanese vs American Water Stones?

W

Working Edge

Joined
Dec 14, 2020
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74
Hello Again,
I'm curious about the feel and feedback of American-made water stone compared to Japanese water stones.
I've never been happy with the feel and cutting feedback of my old King 1200, 4000 and 6000 grit water stones; freehanding feels like dragging the blade over a cake of hardened mud....too unfocused and indistinct.
Are the American water stones any harder/better/firmer, feedback-wise?
As a point of reference, I'm freehanding on Crystalon, India, soft and hard Arkansas stones, and loving the feedback of these stones.
Thanks in advance,
Mark
 
There are harder Japanese water stones than the King. Even King has harder waterstones, like the Neo ST's and the Hyper stones.
You might consider the Shaptons, Chosera/Naniwa Professional, or Sigma Power.
The only American water stones I know of are Pride Abrasives and whatever it is that Sharpening Supplies sells. Not sure where Norton makes theirs.
 
Pride and Sharpening Supplies both make solid stones. I think they are both produced by the same company, as mine appear to be identical. The 220 and 400 are pretty friable. The 1k and up are very hard, building up black swarf instead of a mud. They are vitrified and therefore thirstier, relatively speaking, but I did not find them annoyingly so.

They’re good stones. Not a bad buy. My first choice for hard stones is Shapton Glass though, if you aren’t deadset on American brands.

That being said, I believe Nanohone is American, no? And I have heard great things about them. I look forward to purchasing some of their stuff myself. Essentially American Shapton Glass, if you will.
 
I'm pretty sure the Norton Waterstones are still made in USA.

They are not much harder than the King/Ice Bear line, but grind quite a bit faster. They have better feedback as well, though I never had much trouble with King brand in that respect either.
 
"Water stones" is such a loose term and really just means "not pre-loaded with oil, and water is an appropriate lubrication for them". Splash-and-go stones are the only ones that could really be called EXCLUSIVELY water stones because oil will legitimately ruin them and the urea bond needs water to break it down to shed grit. All of the stones I've designed can be used with water, and that's what I do with them, but I don't label them as water stones simply because oil is still an option with them if you want. Any vitrified bond stone that isn't pre-loaded with oil can be used with water in theory, but it's just a matter of the bond not being so hard that it NEEDS oil not to glaze. Lots of stones fit that description.
 
Beansandcarrots said:
Pride and Sharpening Supplies both make solid stones. I think they are both produced by the same company, as mine appear to be identical.
Click to expand...
That make sense, since both are in the same state.
Weren't the earlier Pride water stones made in Germany?
I just checked out the "About" section of Nano Hone. They said they are designed in the US and the machined parts are made here. So the stones themselves must be made elsewhere.
 
It doesn't really make a difference unless you want a binder or abrasive size that can't be found with one or the other.

I second your comment about the oilstones (I generally do everything but final edge treatment with an IM 313 - medium crystolon if a knife is in bad shape, then fine india and then a dan's hard (second from finest grit, not the super fine stones). I remove the burr with a buffing wheel - front with pressure to round over an apex for tough use, and corner of the wheel with compound just to remove the burr and polish a little bit.

I've refurbished a lot of tools and knives, and there's no waterstone progression that will match the speed of the IM-313 as mentioned above. A lot of knives that don't do well having a bevel set with any waterstone or diamond stone (ick feel and deep scratches) will grind cleanly and easily on a medium crystolon.

I've sharpened knives for people with this setup, too, and generally the complaint is "too sharp", not the other way around.
 
Beansandcarrots said:
Pride and Sharpening Supplies both make solid stones. I think they are both produced by the same company, as mine appear to be identical. The 220 and 400 are pretty friable. The 1k and up are very hard, building up black swarf instead of a mud. They are vitrified and therefore thirstier, relatively speaking, but I did not find them annoyingly so


That being said, I believe Nanohone is American, no? And I have heard great things about them. I look forward to purchasing some of their stuff myself. Essentially American Shapton Glass, if you will.
Click to expand...

The similarities probably end with the person distributing them. I can't imagine seeing them bought and used in any business situation (unless sharpening knives for people who display them is counted as business, but any sharpening stones can do that well). I'd imagine HS has the nanohones made in japan. Not sure if something went sideways with shaptons, but I never bought shaptons sold in the US, anyway, as somehow they doubled in price in the pro series. Pictures under my microscope show the finer glasstones to be a bit more closely graded, but they're also sort of screwing around to use as there are a lot of alumina pastes and polishes that do a better job faster and for a tiny fraction of the price. Here's an example on a tool: (this is a pro shapton stone picture, I don't have glasstone pictures on file).

shapton cream (12,000) - doesn't appear to be that closely graded, which may explain why it cuts so fast for its grit rating:
https://i.imgur.com/aEYDo5C.jpg

Autosol on pine:
https://i.imgur.com/FIK1g4n.jpg

Close grit grading is very cheap in powders below the level of size available in any stone if desired. The high-priced small grit stones are kind of a waste of money and struggle to match the results of submicron abrasives placed on a cheap backer.
 
Beansandcarrots said:
Pride and Sharpening Supplies both make solid stones. I think they are both produced by the same company, as mine appear to be identical. The 220 and 400 are pretty friable. The 1k and up are very hard, building up black swarf instead of a mud. They are vitrified and therefore thirstier, relatively speaking, but I did not find them annoyingly so.

They’re good stones. Not a bad buy. My first choice for hard stones is Shapton Glass though, if you aren’t deadset on American brands.
Click to expand...
Recieved a double-sided stone kit from Sharpening Supllies; agreed, the 220 is quite friable and 1000 and above, quite hard.
Gonna take some getting used to, as initially, takes significantly more time to achieve the same level of sharpness than I'm accustomed to bringing about with my oilsones.
Regardless, gonna keep using these new water stones, since it never hurts to develop skills in multiple systems, no?
 
HeavyHanded said:
I'm pretty sure the Norton Waterstones are still made in USA.

They are not much harder than the King/Ice Bear line, but grind quite a bit faster. They have better feedback as well, though I never had much trouble with King brand in that respect either.
Click to expand...
Heavy, if I remember correctly you did a video on the Norton’s? Very useful review I thought
 
Working Edge said:
Recieved a double-sided stone kit from Sharpening Supllies; agreed, the 220 is quite friable and 1000 and above, quite hard.
Gonna take some getting used to, as initially, takes significantly more time to achieve the same level of sharpness than I'm accustomed to bringing about with my oilsones.
Regardless, gonna keep using these new water stones, since it never hurts to develop skills in multiple systems, no?
Click to expand...

You'll find the waterstones to be quite effective when something is just a bit hard for your oilstones, but otherwise usually slower and with less feel.

They are faster perhaps per grit (but uniform and finer grit), but less touch sensitive and don't allow as much uninhibited hand power in any direction. Nothing in the waterstone world duplicates a medium crystlon and medium india following very well, and because of that, I usually use oilstones to prepare things like japanese chisels - waterstones are too slow,and the ones that are fast don't have the right media to prevent loading. Diamond hones are poorly graded, so they're out.
 
D-weaver said:
You'll find the waterstones to be quite effective when something is just a bit hard for your oilstones, but otherwise usually slower and with less feel.

They are faster perhaps per grit (but uniform and finer grit), but less touch sensitive and don't allow as much uninhibited hand power in any direction. Nothing in the waterstone world duplicates a medium crystlon and medium india following very well, and because of that, I usually use oilstones to prepare things like japanese chisels - waterstones are too slow,and the ones that are fast don't have the right media to prevent loading. Diamond hones are poorly graded, so they're out.
Click to expand...
Thank you, very informative post.
 
Working Edge said:
Recieved a double-sided stone kit from Sharpening Supllies; agreed, the 220 is quite friable and 1000 and above, quite hard.
Gonna take some getting used to, as initially, takes significantly more time to achieve the same level of sharpness than I'm accustomed to bringing about with my oilsones.
Regardless, gonna keep using these new water stones, since it never hurts to develop skills in multiple systems, no?
Click to expand...
Couldn’t agree more. I definitely found them to be high performers. The 8k is still one of my go-to apex cleaners. You should post some pics of the action!
 
Ourorboros said:
There are harder Japanese water stones than the King. Even King has harder waterstones, like the Neo ST's and the Hyper stones.
You might consider the Shaptons, Chosera/Naniwa Professional, or Sigma Power.
The only American water stones I know of are Pride Abrasives and whatever it is that Sharpening Supplies sells. Not sure where Norton makes theirs.
Click to expand...
Not incidentally Pride makes the house brand Sharpening Supplies stones.
 
Ourorboros said:
I should have guessed, their house Arkansas stones are rebranded Dan's Whetstones from what I've read.
Click to expand...
As are most companies'. They're one of only a couple o' names in the business for Arkansas stones.
 
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