Japanese water stones??? What?Where

tarmix101

tarmix101

Joined
Jun 14, 2005
Messages
2,962
I'm looking for some advise on water stones. What brand has a good reputation, where can I find them, and what recommendations can anyone give me? I.E. do you prefer water stones to traditional soft/hard Arkansas?

I'm planning on using the water stones for my "scandi" grind knives. I have been told elsewhere that water stones are more efficient on that kind of grind. Any info from those of you that use them will be appreciated.

Thanks....:thumbup:
 
The grind is largely irrelevant, waterstones in general cut very aggresively for their finish as the binder breaks down quickly so there is constant fresh abrasive media exposed.

If you are using it for fine wood, woodcraft and the like, I would get a 200 grit SiC waterstone for keeping the main bevel flat and a combination fine/ultra fine hone to work the secondary edge bevel.

Only use the 200 on the full grind, it is an extreme waste of time to polish that any further. Once the grind has been established use the finer 1000/4000 stone elevated to 1-2 degrees above the primary edge grind.

This will create a very fine microbevel along the primary edge grind. In subsequent sharpenings it may be necessary to just work this bevel with the finer stone, going back to the 200 if the edge is visibly damaged or the micro-bevel grows and is visible.

Lee Valley sells a bunch of waterstones, Shapton is likely the best bet if you have lots of money, but using a Shapton waterstone on a puukko is like having Chas Clements make a sheath for a united cutlery bowie.

-Cliff
 
I'm happy with the Norton Water Stones at Lee Valley - got a 220 Sic and the 1000/4000 sandwich. They are great cutters, easy to lap and do a great job. Can't say much more than you won't be disappointed.
 
I have used waterstones for many years for my wood working chisels and plane blades. My softest (require more flattening) are the Japanese King brand, USA Norton water stones are next in hardness and the toughest are the Japanese Shapton brand. I also have some natural stones from China in very fine grades. My Shapton stones are rather costly and are reserved for plane blades and very fine finishes.

They all work and IMHO the best value are the USA made Norton stones. The most economical are the Norton combination stones however, cross contamination is a concern.

In comparison to natural Arkansas or ceramic, the water stones are very fast cutting and also wear fast and will require flattening on a sheet of glass or flat surface with abrasive paper or slurry. The advantage of quick cutting is worth the maintenance, my old Arkansas stones and Norton oil stones are rarely used since developing the water stone system.

Regards,
FK
 
FK said:
The most economical are the Norton combination stones however, cross contamination is a concern.
Click to expand...

I have heard this noted a few times, I keep all my waterstones in a bucket of water, it contains 200 SiC, 800,1000,4000 AO, a chinese waterstone and a cheap coarse/fine AO oil stone which I use with water. I just rinse off the stones before I use them. I can maybe see it being a concern with some of the more expensive stones, especially the really fine grades, but functionally I don't see it being an issue.

-Cliff
 
I haven't used water stones either, and looked in here to pick up some advice. I've been happy with my black and surgical sharpening (mine is pink/ translucent) AR stones. will I notice an appreciable difference using a 6000-8000 grit water stone? Tarmix, Bugei Trading Co. sell (real) Samurai swords and maintenance items, including waterstones.
 
Cliff, thanks for the info. I may not agree with your view on puukkos, however I found the info you provided very usefully:D Looking @ the Shapton right now. Might wait until after Christmas to make this investment. Wow....
 
I like puukko's have several and use them often, I just think if you are actually paying a serious amount of money for them then you can get a more efficient grind, but in the lost cost range the performance/price is insanely high.

-Cliff
 
NavyRigger said:
I haven't used water stones either, and looked in here to pick up some advice. I've been happy with my black and surgical sharpening (mine is pink/ translucent) AR stones. will I notice an appreciable difference using a 6000-8000 grit water stone? Tarmix, Bugei Trading Co. sell (real) Samurai swords and maintenance items, including waterstones.
Click to expand...

Yes you will, but 8000+ are mainly considered polishing stones. Perhaps even the 6000. Say something in the 4 to 5000 range will give you appreciable diffrences from the AR stones. Higher than that and it starts to get esoteric, like for 'real' Samurai swords, fine carving tools and the like.

I have a 8000 Shapton. It is WAY beyond anything I need with the 5000 being more than enough. There are also stones that go up to 12 or 15K for edges that I don't even dream about.

I simply don't have anything that could use that kind of stone. Wish I did, but I'd have to hit the lotto and THEN get lucky! LOL

Rob
 
I have the Norton 1000-4000-8000
the Spyderco medium-fine-ultrafine
several arkansas stones
many barber hones
Belgian hones
Ezlap diamond hones
Chinese 12000 grit natural waterstone
natural and manmade japanese waterstones and numerous others

My choice is the Norton Waterstone'
They cut the fastest, clean the easiest, lap the fastest and have a variety of grits.
The only ones that cut faster are the diamond hones but they are really hard on a blade.

Randy Tuttle
 
Anybody have a suggested source for the Norton waterstones (other than Lee Valley)?

Thanks,

--SAK
 
SAK said:
Anybody have a suggested source for the Norton waterstones (other than Lee Valley)?
Click to expand...
Below are two links to vendors who I know have them. Note that Hardwick's don't have them on their website (yet), but have some on the shelf at their store. If you contact them, they can probably ship some to you. They tend to be cheaper than most of their local tool-vendor competition.

Hardwick & Sons Hardware: http://www.ehardwicks.com/aboutus/Contactus.htm

Woodcraft: http://www.woodcraft.com/

HTH.
 
RokJok said:
Below are two links to vendors who I know have them.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info RokJok.

(As an aside: I watched you perform a magic act at BladeWest - within minutes of show opening you made the SAR Rat disappear before my very eyes. :D )

--SAK
 
I have a few of the beasties:
toishi.jpg


There are a ton of them I haven't tried but here's my 2 cents based on the stuff I have tried and things that others have said.

There are several types of water stones. Clay bonded are sort of like a flower pot with aluminum oxide mixed in (often red and smell like a flower pot too). Then there are the magnesia stones, these are made by mixing the abrasive with a sort of plaster-like cement... Suehiro white stones are of this type. Then there are your resin bonded stones (abrasive is mixed with a sort of plastic resin and baked at a low temp.). Shapton pro stones are this type.

Shapton pro are very hard. Good for stainless, very fast, polishing stones are good on softer steels (easy to dull a hard blade on the 8k-15k if you don't hold the angle pretty carefully). Don't absorb water (and don't soak too long or the surface becomes rubbery). Don't form a slurry (other than the normal swarf) Shapton M5 are their cheap "half stones" The M24 only go up to 5k and are made for kitchen knives and people who like to push hard when they are sharpening. The M15 go up to 12k and are made for carpenters... they do form a slurry and act more like a typical waterstone. The Lr-250 and Hippo stones are huge versions for professional sharpeners.

Naniwa Super are similar to Shapton pro (resin bond) but rather soft so you can gouge them with a thin edge but easier to polish a hard blade (less likely to dull an edge due to free-hand slop on the polish stones. They also make a "snow white" 8k magnesia stone that is quite popular. Do not soak the Super stones or they turn rubbery. http://www.rakuten.co.jp/sekinohamonoya/440372/452465/526009/526012/ and http://www.rakuten.co.jp/sekinohamonoya/440372/452465/526009/624415/ Korin, Japan Woodworker, Hidatool and Sushivan carry Naniwa (they have a pic of an ebi -lobster or shrimp- on them)


Kitayama (North Mountain) 8k Superpolish stone... has the feel of a natural stone (and contains natural stone powder) forms a nice slurry that will break down further while polishing and produce a finish equivalent to a 10k or 12k stone. Medium hardness, medium wear. Arashiyama (Storm Mountain) are similar but I hear they are more suited to carbon steels. No need to soak

MinoSharp (sometimes listed as Global) come in a box with two sharpening guides for kitchen knives. These hold just the right amount of water (soak these) and handle like a natural stone (and leave a more mat-like finish like a natural stone too) forming a little bit of slurry. But, may leave a dark haze on some stainless steels (won't wash off, but another stone or SOS pad will remove it as it is just mud stuck in the pores of the steel). Slower than the Shaptons, but more fun to use.

Norton. These are US waterstones and they have the grit off a little (I hear tell that the 4k is closer to Shapton's 2k and the 8k is closer to to 5k or 6k). These are economical, cut well and come in a nice 3" width (be careful you don't get the 2" wide if you are looking for a cheaper price). Slower than Shaptons and wear faster but are much thicker too so it is a wash. Lots of people like these, especially for honing straight razors.

Matsunaga King makes so many stones that they are all over the place... everything from Sun Tiger carbide stones to the popular Super and Hyper series as well as cheap home stones. Here is their Japanese site that lists all the stones they make http://www.matsunaga-corp.co.jp/kakutoishi/01.html most appear to be clay bond (these can be kept in water), but they even have a well reviewed 1k diamond/ceramic stone (runs about $170 though). Anyway quality can be so-so to very good, depending on which ones you get.

Oribest are made by Sigma Power Company and are hard ceramic (decent but not rated as highly as some others)

Suehiro... they make white/yellow magnesia stones. Medium soft, slower than some of the others but easy to use. Decent stones but not outstanding. Don't absorb much water so you can just splash them. They don't form a lot of slurry unless you use a nagura, but the slurry can grab the back of a deba or the flat side of a chisel (air suction). They also make the ceramic CERAX stones.

Bester.... hard ceramic. Harder and more wear resistant than some of the others but slower. HoB has one if I remeber correctly so I'll let him comment on these.

Basically softer stones work well on hard steels (>Rc60) since they cut a bit faster and the polish stones are less likely to round your nice sharp edge (the edge may just make a tiny gouge in the stone if you goof the angle on a stroke).

Hard stones seem to control the edge of softer steels better.

Nagura and stones that form a slurry help control burrs (basically the polishing slurry abrades the back of the edge, and the burr, as well as the side that is touching the stone). The slurry on the Mountain Blue stones and the Kitayama also break down and become finer so produce a finer finish than their actual grit would indicate (polish on the slurry)

You may find some stones leave a bright scratch pattern, some leave a smoother more mat finish like natural stones and some will load up the pores in things like D2 or stainless and leave a dark haze (mud caught in the tiny pores, which is the reason I mentioned the Shapton Pro and Naniwa stones are good for stainless... think the Kitayama and Suehiro are also okay, but the Minosharp and most of the natural stones will do this)

Coarse stones wear very fast so get the big green or pink "bricks". You should probably also get your regular 800 to 1500 grit in single stones too, since you will use them the most. You can save money by getting combo stones in grits over 3000 (finish stones wear more slowly and you use them less)


http://www.epicureanedge.com/shopdi...+and+Maintenance+Items?websess=88071388442897
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/norton_waterstones.htm
http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/stones.html
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...een=CTGY&Store_Code=toolshop&Category_Code=TH
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=13098
http://www.bladegallery.com/accessories/stonepage.asp
some 9" round coarse naniwa stones here http://www.sushivan.com/b2b/mk/mk_m.asp?subcode=99
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/N!LWS.htm (they also offer DMT diamond kits with a Norton 8k http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/T!D8.htm )

In Europe http://www.shokunin.co.uk/shokunin.htm
http://www.dick.biz/ (english version, tools, sharpening tools)
http://www.fine-tools.com/scharf.htm
 
There should probably be an abrasives FAQ, the above post certainly contains a wealth of info on waterstones.

-Cliff
 
Hi,

I remembered seeing on a website selling the above size Norton waterstones but can't remember the site. Does anyone know?

The reason I'm going with the narrow stone is that I just ordered an EZESharp and I think using 1 inch wide stone would be better than the recommended 2 inch wide stone for the curve portion of the knife.

Thanks
 
Hi SAK,

Thanks very much. How do you guys cram so much information up there? You gotta teach me.

Bill
 
Hi,

Is there a way to cut waterstones to smaller sizes or use a saw? Let's say I buy a 3 inch wide piece and cut it to 2 pieces, 1 inch and 2 inch wide stones. It'll be far cheaper than for me to buy these 2 separately. I need narrower stones for sharpening using the EZESharp.

Thanks
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top