Japanese water stones...

anvilring

anvilring

Joined
Nov 29, 2000
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I'm want to give them a try.

I've watched, at the BLADE show, as a fellow from Japan honed an edge that was impressive to say the least using these sorts of stones.

They're are natural ones (quite expensive... or so some of them are) and synthic ones. The natural ones produce an iron slurry.

I'm sick of corundum, india stones, and diamond.

I don't always want to do a rolled edge.

Anyone here have some experience with these?? if so; what are you using in terms of brand, and grit?

Here's some of what I'm leaning toward:

http://www.nihonzashi.com/water_stones.aspx

Or these...which don't require soaking yet work with water.

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Naniwa-Super-Stone-P290C97.aspx?gclid=CMfC-KSS-aYCFQO8Kgodw3j_Cg
 
Natural Japanese Water stones are ridiculously expensive, and to be quite honest very rare to the point even if you have the money you may not find them.

nihonzashi's water stones are pretty good, but if I am not mistaken they are all synthetic.
Personally I have not tried them, but I do know some Japanese non professional polishers use these stones for non-traditional hybrid polishes. The overall response is that they're good synthetic stones.

There are many grades of stones that the Japanese used for polishing/sharpening, extending form going from 300~ grit, to going all the way to 30,000~ or something of the sort with finger stones. If I am not mistaken finishing polish and consequently sharpening takes place at around 1000-5000 grit.
 
I've been using naturals and synthetics for years. They each have pluses and minuses.

For someone new to waterstones, I'd recommend starting out with Naniwa Super Stones. They're reasonably priced, have a great feel, and do a fantastic job of sharpening. The knock against them is that they're a little soft and can gouge easily, but I don't think that would be an issue for an experienced knifemaker/sharpener.

You might start with a 1k Super Stone to get a feel for synthetics, and a natural aoto to begin that part of the journey. It's addictive...
 
The guy that you saw at Blade sells the stones he uses, if it's the same guy I'm thinking of. Did he have two stones attached to a handle and work in a bucket? I have one from him, I think it cost me 20 bucks. I'll try to run down his name for you.

anvilring said:
I'm want to give them a try.

I've watched, at the BLADE show, as a fellow from Japan honed an edge that was impressive to say the least using these sorts of stones.

They're are natural ones (quite expensive... or so some of them are) and synthic ones. The natural ones produce an iron slurry.

I'm sick of corundum, india stones, and diamond.

I don't always want to do a rolled edge.

Anyone here have some experience with these?? if so; what are you using in terms of brand, and grit?

Here's some of what I'm leaning toward:

http://www.nihonzashi.com/water_stones.aspx

Or these...which don't require soaking yet work with water.

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Naniwa-Super-Stone-P290C97.aspx?gclid=CMfC-KSS-aYCFQO8Kgodw3j_Cg
Click to expand...
 
Norton makes a nice set of synthetic water stones. I have had the 8 inch stone set for years and they work great. 220-1000-4000-8000 grit. The final 8000 will leave you with a mirror polished edge. If I remember right, I gave about 200 bucks for the set but thats been 10 years or so ago.

Jerry Fisher
 
japanwoodworker.com has some good stones too. I have two King brand synthetic waterstones: #1200, #4000, and Takenoko brand #8000. I keep the 1200 in the kitchen, it's a good stone for touching up edges for veggie cutting. The #4000 and 8000 are for my straight razor. I usually use the 8 for normal maintenance before stropping, and the 4 to reset the edge less frequently. They work quickly and produce a very nice edge. I recommend King brand stones for sure, and the Takenoko is good quality as well.
 
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hidatool.com then go to wood working and then stones. Best deal I have found in years. Straight from Japan.
 
I use cheap water stones for blade refinishing, but I see no need to use them for sharpening.
Anvilring- are you familiar with synthetic ruby stones? Gesswein, Rio Grande sell them. Possibly the ultimate edge!
 
nthe10ring said:
Norton makes a nice set of synthetic water stones. I have had the 8 inch stone set for years and they work great. 220-1000-4000-8000 grit. The final 8000 will leave you with a mirror polished edge. If I remember right, I gave about 200 bucks for the set but thats been 10 years or so ago.

Jerry Fisher
Click to expand...

This is what I use, but I bought the combo stones. 220/1000 and 4000/8000. I rarely use the 220 because I rough in the edges of my knives with a 120 zirc belt, then smooth that out with a cheap course diamond hone. After that I go to the 1000 Norton, work up to the 8000, followed by stropping on leather strop loaded with .5 micron green compound. I find that the edges I get with the water stones are the best I have ever gotten.
 
AcridSaint said:
The guy that you saw at Blade sells the stones he uses, if it's the same guy I'm thinking of. Did he have two stones attached to a handle and work in a bucket? I have one from him, I think it cost me 20 bucks. I'll try to run down his name for you.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about my buddy, Sho? I get most of my stones from him. I also use Norton 600,1000,4000,8000 grit..... they are soft but nice.

Shosui Takeda
PB190011.jpg
 
I still have a "stone-on-a -stick" that I bought at Blade from Takeda many years back.

All this about water stones and how some folks claim they do amazing things reminds me of the fellow at carnivals and fairs, back in my youth, who used to sell these little rubber disks that you could put in your mouth and do all kinds of things, You could "throw" your voice like a ventriloquist, and make all sorts of bird calls. After getting one, you found out that it was the the guy who knew how to make those sounds.... and their was no magic in the rubber disk.

The same goes for water stones.
I see many new makers who buy expensive water stones and can't get an edge that will cut a tomato. Then there are the old guys with a worn out $10 Norton bench stone who can carve Lincoln's bust on a single hair after sharpening a knife.
 
Charlie Lewis posted this link (he makes razors that are over the top) and I saw one of his razors at a hammer inn and it was truly the sharpest I have ever seen. Anyway, this is a great look at how to use them.

http://goo.gl/U7gKY

Quote from Charlie:
I hone pretty much exactly like this guy does in his series of videos using the naniwa stones. Glen (gssixgun) is really good at explaining the process. His honing videos are great. I use some different brands of water stones but it is the process that matters most not the brand of stones.
 
Stacy made a good point that I want to expand on because it is true that buying waterstones won't give you a better edge and in fact I'd bet it will lead to a worse edge for most.

Using these stones traditionally (free hand) is a skill that needs to be acquired through a lot of practice. If you only sharpen a knife every once in awhile it's going to take you some time to get decent at this skill set.

I sell stones myself but I don't ever market them to knifemakers and I don't encourage knifemakers to learn this skill because of these reasons.

Now if a knifemaker is dead set on providing a stone edge then I would suggest keeping the edge coarse (toothy as they say). Taking an edge up to a high polish when you are new at stone sharpening will only lead to multi-facets being created as a result of your natural tendencies to wobble. Yes this happens at the lower grit levels as well but the difference is that the rough edge created there will at least grab and cut vs. slide.

So if you're set on going the stone route my suggestings for success would be to go with stones no higher than 1200x (Japanese) and to finish by stropping with diamond (not chromium oxide) loaded leather hard backed bench strops/hones (not belts). The diamond finish will be refined yet still grabby and the hard backed leather strop won't allow edge roll as easy as a belt will.
 
Dave is right on. I was dead set on using waterstones from the beginning and either ruined or prematurely wore down many expensive stones in all the grit ranges. It wasn't until I really worked at it using 1000-4000 that I was able to get a decent edge and keep a stone no worse for wear. I went through (2) 8000 grit stones in two months when I started. After refining my technique and learning from those who were smarter than me. I have been on the same stone for almost 2yrs and it is still in great shape.

Here is an old picture of my basic setup...

IMG_0002-3.jpg
 
There is a learning curve with water stones , as there is with anything a person pursues. I love em. I have several nice oil stones, a large translucent white arkansas, a surgical black and a couple of grades of the softer washita. The water stones win hands down, at least for me. What I like about the water stones is the tactile feedback you get from using them, you can feel them working even at the 8000 grit level. With a fine grade oil stone you just dont get that.
Water stones are softer and require a little more care , but used right, they give a fine edge.

Jerry Fisher
 
thats good stuff right there.. ! completely agree


on the cheep, king stones are good syn stone.. i like the 800, 1200
- there's also a 20000 grit chinese stone at woodcraft.. is ok n cheep

by the way.. the micron diamond paste from dmt is sweet... .. for me, i like the 800,1200, 4000.. then dmt paste... it'll cut floating silk scarves in half with no effort... really don't think you need anything sharper than that;)






bladsmth said:
I still have a "stone-on-a -stick" that I bought at Blade from Takeda many years back.

All this about water stones and how some folks claim they do amazing things reminds me of the fellow at carnivals and fairs, back in my youth, who used to sell these little rubber disks that you could put in your mouth and do all kinds of things, You could "throw" your voice like a ventriloquist, and make all sorts of bird calls. After getting one, you found out that it was the the guy who knew how to make those sounds.... and their was no magic in the rubber disk.

The same goes for water stones.
I see many new makers who buy expensive water stones and can't get an edge that will cut a tomato. Then there are the old guys with a worn out $10 Norton bench stone who can carve Lincoln's bust on a single hair after sharpening a knife.
Click to expand...
 
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