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It's my understanding the KA-BAR 1217 is based on the USMC Fighting Knives used in WWII. Does anybody know any physical differences between the two knifes? Thank you
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KA-BAR 1217 Differences from WWII USMC Fighting Knife?
- Thread starter OldMarineVet
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The reproduction has a 3/8" pommel that is PINNED using a 3/4 blind pin, meaning that the pin only goes 3/4 way through the pommel and can oonly be seen on one side. The original PINNED pommel versions had a 1/4" thick pommel that the pin can be seen on both sides. The thick pommel (3/8") originals had PEENED pommels, the first batches having a round tang exposed on the butt, latter thick pommels had a square/rectangular shaped tang peened on.
The current reproductions come from the factory with a false swedge or unsharpened clip. The originals had a sharpened clip. According to stories, the initial reproductions (late 70s) had a sharpened clip. I have not held a NIB original reproduction to verify that. Many reproductions that I have examined had a sharpened clip, but I couldn't tell if it was factory or post-factory sharpen because all had had sharpening attempts made on them.
The original leather sheaths were either bare on the face for the 1219C2s or had USN for the Mk2s. Either sheath could have been issued with either version, depending on what was in the supply system at the of issue. No WW2 sheath EVER had the EGA stamp.
Reproduction sheaths have the EGA.
WW2 finishes were Parkerized. Current reproductions have a black powder coat. I don't know what the initial reproductions had as a blade finish.
The current reproductions come from the factory with a false swedge or unsharpened clip. The originals had a sharpened clip. According to stories, the initial reproductions (late 70s) had a sharpened clip. I have not held a NIB original reproduction to verify that. Many reproductions that I have examined had a sharpened clip, but I couldn't tell if it was factory or post-factory sharpen because all had had sharpening attempts made on them.
The original leather sheaths were either bare on the face for the 1219C2s or had USN for the Mk2s. Either sheath could have been issued with either version, depending on what was in the supply system at the of issue. No WW2 sheath EVER had the EGA stamp.
Reproduction sheaths have the EGA.
WW2 finishes were Parkerized. Current reproductions have a black powder coat. I don't know what the initial reproductions had as a blade finish.
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- Jul 24, 2014
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Rural Central Texas,
A long time ago I resolved not to be a collector of anything but to buy things, knives in this case that I had a use for even it was only a theoretical use. Thus when my son gave me a New in the Box (as far as I could tell) 1217 I didn't save the box or the certificate that came with it. Also, I did not keep the leather in the original condition but stained it Marine Corps mahogany. My son as I may have mentioned helped an old lady clean out her husband's stuff, including the knife and some replica caps with naval insignias on them. No doubt the paper that came with the knife would have told me when it was made but I don't recall what was on it.
In revisiting my knives in terms of giving me more hiking choices I decided not to use the one my son gave me because it had a sharpened swedge. Instead I bought a new one from Amazon. The differences between them include more than the fact that the earlier one had a sharpened swedge:
The first thing I noticed was that the handles were different in circumference. The older 1217 had a noticeably fatter handle. The newer one was more slender and fit my hand better.
The grind on the older 1217 has a space between it and the fuller. The newer 1217 does not.
Perhaps because of the grind difference, the "USMC" as well as the "KA-BAR OLEAN NY" stamping was different
The pin on the older 1217s pommel was painted and the one on the newer 1217 was not.
The pommel on the older 1217 seems to abut the leather disc above it The pommel on the newer 1217 includes a step before it encounters the first leather disc.
The blade finish of the two reproductions is probably the same although the finish on the older 1217 is duller.
Lawrence
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Lawrence-
You're right about other differences as well. One could write a book on all the differences. I just posted the 2 most obvious ones for the knife and 2 for the sheath. The WW2s had several variations through their short 3 year production span. That's for another thread sometime.
Kabar wanted to make sure that no one could try to claim a reproduction was a WW2 vintage. Multiple differences "obvious" to a knowledgeable collector, although a rookie can be fooled, if a repro was sufficiently "aged" and the rookie doesn't have a clue. Hence Mr. Levine's oft-repeated saw - "Read the knife, not the story."
I believe on the repros that a "recent" (several months back) change was to make the grind more closely match the originals, i.e., upper edge closer to the fuller. Making it more "slicier", if that's a legitimate knife word now.
On the handles, on the originals there was significantly more variation than on the repros. Whether there was that much variation in the factory at the time (speed of production, more manual shaping than automated, less adherence to "specs", etc. Some have thinner, more oval handles than others with more rounder. The WW2s have had a longer time to be modded by a user, so maybe some have been "thinned" for smaller hands with a little sand paper along the way.
The very first runs had red plastic spacers between the guard and the leather. Later versions had black plastic spacers, similar to the repros.
The USMC on the repros is deeper and of a larger font. Other little differences too.
You're right about other differences as well. One could write a book on all the differences. I just posted the 2 most obvious ones for the knife and 2 for the sheath. The WW2s had several variations through their short 3 year production span. That's for another thread sometime.
Kabar wanted to make sure that no one could try to claim a reproduction was a WW2 vintage. Multiple differences "obvious" to a knowledgeable collector, although a rookie can be fooled, if a repro was sufficiently "aged" and the rookie doesn't have a clue. Hence Mr. Levine's oft-repeated saw - "Read the knife, not the story."
I believe on the repros that a "recent" (several months back) change was to make the grind more closely match the originals, i.e., upper edge closer to the fuller. Making it more "slicier", if that's a legitimate knife word now.
On the handles, on the originals there was significantly more variation than on the repros. Whether there was that much variation in the factory at the time (speed of production, more manual shaping than automated, less adherence to "specs", etc. Some have thinner, more oval handles than others with more rounder. The WW2s have had a longer time to be modded by a user, so maybe some have been "thinned" for smaller hands with a little sand paper along the way.
The very first runs had red plastic spacers between the guard and the leather. Later versions had black plastic spacers, similar to the repros.
The USMC on the repros is deeper and of a larger font. Other little differences too.
The 1970's repro's had a parkerized blade and pommel but the guard was painted flat black. The exposed pin in the pommel was also painted over in flat black paint. The repro's also have the handle more off center than the war originals. Along with the mentioned differences, the repro also has black paint applied in the grooves of the handle. This was never done on the originals. Not sure who had that idea but it is rather odd IMO. I have also found that the 70's version had the edges rounded where the guard meets the blade.
With regard to the sheath, they have always been subpar. The first generation was stapled with a leather welt and a blackened brass snap. The ones I had were always dripping in neatsfoot oil which soaked into the box and paperwork. I still have mine from the late 70's early 80's along with several newer models.
If you need a visual, follow this link: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/ka-bar.htm
With regard to the sheath, they have always been subpar. The first generation was stapled with a leather welt and a blackened brass snap. The ones I had were always dripping in neatsfoot oil which soaked into the box and paperwork. I still have mine from the late 70's early 80's along with several newer models.
If you need a visual, follow this link: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/ka-bar.htm
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zzyzzogeton, Lawrence, and dre, thank you very much for taking the time to provide this great information. Now I'll have better understanding when I look at KBAR USMC Fighting Knives in the future. Thanks again
Z, I agree that the WW2 knives really do have a large number of variations among them. However I don't believe I've seen yet a WW2 KA-BAR that had only single thin black spacers behind the guard and pommel like the reproduction knives starting in the 70's. I could certainly be wrong about this at the end of the day, but it is one of the smaller variances pointed out in the past as a post WW2 type KA-BAR. There is an older thread here on the forum where Toooj addressed the apparent offset in the handles of the currently made knives. I do agree that most of the WW2 KA-BARs appear to have the centerline of the handle in line with the centerline of the blade, but I have seen examples where the offset of the WW2 handle is more obvious than on the others.
The most obvious tell on the newer knives is the combination of a thick, (3/8"), pommel held on with a cross pin.
Frank Trzaska stated that the change on the new knives finish from parkerizing to the present coating happened in the early 90's.
The most obvious tell on the newer knives is the combination of a thick, (3/8"), pommel held on with a cross pin.
Frank Trzaska stated that the change on the new knives finish from parkerizing to the present coating happened in the early 90's.
Not that you need my input here but you are correct on all your statements above. Sac troop, are you as good at telling all your wife's shoes and purses apart?
