Kabar Original Design Discussion

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Toooj,

I'm a knifemaker in Virginia, and I have a question about the USMC style Ka-bars. The blade spine thickness is listed as 0.165, or approximately 5/32," or slightly less, with wide fullers. I know the knife has an excellent reputation, but I can't figure out why you don't get blade breakage with such a thin spine and fullers that further weaken the blade. The blade design just doesn't seem that strong. Also, I wonder why you have what appear to be 90 degree shoulders on the tangs, it seems these would be perfect stress risers. Thanks.
 
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Toooj,

I'm a knifemaker in Virginia, and I have a question about the USMC style Ka-bars. The blade spine thickness is listed as 0.165, or approximately 5/32," or slightly less, with wide fullers. I know the knife has an excellent reputation, but I can't figure out why you don't get blade breakage with such a thin spine and fullers that further weaken the blade. The blade design just doesn't seem that strong. Also, I wonder why you have what appear to be 90 degree shoulders on the tangs, it seems these would be perfect stress risers. Thanks.

I'm gonna venture a guess and say good heat treat. The fuller was put in to reduce weight and maintain strength. Similar to the design of the I Beam. Less metal, but just as strong.

As to the blade reduction to tang stress risers, yes, yes they are stress risers. Everyone that I have broke and have seen broken, happen there.

Why does KA-BAR keep it that way? I like to think they are staying true to original specs and the legacy of the knife. Are there tougher knives out there? Sure there are. Can any of them claim the heritage and legacy of the KABAR? No, not really. Some have been around as long, but none have ever became the mascot of an entire branch of our armed services.

When used as a knife should be, they are pretty damn tuff. Even the one's I've abused have not died gently.

Moose
 
I'm gonna venture a guess and say good heat treat. The fuller was put in to reduce weight and maintain strength. Similar to the design of the I Beam. Less metal, but just as strong.

As to the blade reduction to tang stress risers, yes, yes they are stress risers. Everyone that I have broke and have seen broken, happen there.

Why does KA-BAR keep it that way? I like to think they are staying true to original specs and the legacy of the knife. Are there tougher knives out there? Sure there are. Can any of them claim the heritage and legacy of the KABAR? No, not really. Some have been around as long, but none have ever became the mascot of an entire branch of our armed services.

When used as a knife should be, they are pretty damn tuff. Even the one's I've abused have not died gently.

Moose

What brought me to my question are the stories of Ka-bars being used to pry open crates, dig foxholes, or being used to baton. I just did'nt think such a thin spined knife (and I don't think fullers make a knife stronger, unless they are offset) could be used that way. I have no doubt it's a superb fighter, however.

As for the tang shoulders, I think it would be a better knife if they got rid of those square shoulders.

One last question, does anyone lnow if the original spec's called for a 5/32" spine? I suspect the war issued blade may have been more sturdy.
 
I'm gonna venture a guess and say good heat treat. The fuller was put in to reduce weight and maintain strength. Similar to the design of the I Beam. Less metal, but just as strong.

As to the blade reduction to tang stress risers, yes, yes they are stress risers. Everyone that I have broke and have seen broken, happen there.

Why does KA-BAR keep it that way? I like to think they are staying true to original specs and the legacy of the knife. Are there tougher knives out there? Sure there are. Can any of them claim the heritage and legacy of the KABAR? No, not really. Some have been around as long, but none have ever became the mascot of an entire branch of our armed services.

When used as a knife should be, they are pretty damn tuff. Even the one's I've abused have not died gently.

Moose

Thanks, Moose

Are we free to discuss this in this forum? There was a pretty stern warning at the front of the thread. Anyway, what brought me to my question was I made a ka-bar for myself. I put a 3/16ths spine on it, but when I got to looking at the ka-bar specs I saw it was a very thin spine, close to what I've seen on kitchen knifes. Is this the knife that was issued in WWII? I suspect that knife must have been sturdier. The only way a fuller can strenghten a blade is if they are offset. and these aren't. As for the square shouldered tangs, I can't believe the original spec's called for that. And I don't understand why this design flaw is still continuing. Keep in mind as you read my comments, I'm only a lowly self taught knife maker, not a senior product engineer. But I am looking forward to learning more about ka-bar.
 
David Stifle,

You are free to discuss any technical aspect of KA-BAR knives here. Just keep it respectful (which is what you are doing).
The original 1219c2 design has many attributes and some drawbacks. We try to keep the knife fairly close to the original WWII design. (Of course, technology, safety and environmental requirements have made us change certain aspects of the knife)
The original thickness was 0.165", same as today. Back in 1942 that was a pretty substancial thickness. Most knives were made from much thinner stock back then. In 2013, maybe that isn't as thick as one would like it.
All of the manufacturing processes have come a long way in 70 plus years. We like to think that we are producing the best examples of this design, right now.
The narrow tang with squared shoulders? There are radii at the corners of the shoulders so stress risers shouldn't find a notch. Could the radii be bigger? Could be; but now the guard and washers will have to be redesigned and reproduced. Big tooling costs.
We do periodic statistical and qualitative analysis on the broken tangs that we receive and find that the bigger issue seems to be the heat treat transition zone instead of the corners of the tang/shoulder. We have also found that the broken tangs are not any more significant than a broken tip or broken blade and all of those are not a big issue....even if it was, we are pretty liberal with our replacement policy.
A lot of "experts" postulate on the internet about the weaknesses of this design and that perception becomes reality. However, they don't see what I see on a daily basis....the constant testing, improvement, commitment of a lot of people to bring users a better product while still keeping true to the original design.
For a $100, the 1217 is a pretty high quality knife and arguably the best bang for your buck on the knife market today.
We could go around in circles debating the merits of the knife....or we could just say; it is what it is... if you like it, buy it. If you don't, there are other choices...from KA-BAR or others.

Hope some of this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Quality
KA-BAR Knives
 
Thank you for your reply, Toooj

I'm far from an expert, and I didn't know there has been there has been discussion on the internet about the design. I was simply asking these questions as a knifemaker. I do wish you could produce a modern upgraded stronger version, even if it was more expensive.

Respectfully,

Dave
 
We do periodic statistical and qualitative analysis on the broken tangs that we receive and find that the bigger issue seems to be the heat treat transition zone instead of the corners of the tang/shoulder. We have also found that the broken tangs are not any more significant than a broken tip or broken blade and all of those are not a big issue....even if it was, we are pretty liberal with our replacement policy.

Hope some of this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Quality
KA-BAR Knives
Does this mean that if I sent in my busted tanto it would be replaced or is it that I just beat the crap out of it?? Because I must be honest, I did. All I can say is I've learned how far to push F/U Kabar lol.

PS, I can't say that the USMC is the best knife out there at its price point, seems like its been rising lately but the best knives out there for the money definitely are from Kabar. Request a catalog and you be swamped in quality.

Also Dave, if you ever get your hands on a kabar you'll find that its not as thin/unpryable as your making it out to be in thought process.
 
Well, thin or not, it is still a piece of hardened steel. Just because 1/4" thick knives are in at the moment doesn' t mean a thinner blade is going to fall apart in your hands. 1095 is very tough and Kabar does a good HT, so its not gonna break easily even if you try
 
Does this mean that if I sent in my busted tanto it would be replaced or is it that I just beat the crap out of it?? Because I must be honest, I did. All I can say is I've learned how far to push F/U Kabar lol.

PS, I can't say that the USMC is the best knife out there at its price point, seems like its been rising lately but the best knives out there for the money definitely are from Kabar. Request a catalog and you be swamped in quality.

Also Dave, if you ever get your hands on a kabar you'll find that its not as thin/unpryable as your making it out to be in thought process.

The only Ka-Bar I've ever owned was a USMC Ka-Bar, and I found it a fine knife. I knew it was a fighter, I didn't know it was also considered a utility knife, I just treated it like I do all my knives, carefully. I wouldn't dream of using a knife to pry, it's a disaster for almost any knife. This one, I imagine, wouldn't be much different. Toooj didn't say if the blade is differentially heat treated, I assume not. So the entire blade is hardened. It would snap before taking a set. I'm not knocking the knife in any sense. I just think it's nonsense thinking any knife is one that can take prying, it's not what they are made for; at the very least, the tip will snap. Heavier prying will break the blade or tang. As Toooj said, for $100., it's the best knife for the bang. I don't disagree with that.

I just wonder if there is a market for an upgraded version, perhaps made with D2; a 1/8th to 3/16th spine, rounded radiused tang, etc. It would look exactly the same, dimentions would be different, but I bet there would be a strong market. The Government, even back in 1942, was a cheapskate.
 
Well, thin or not, it is still a piece of hardened steel. Just because 1/4" thick knives are in at the moment doesn' t mean a thinner blade is going to fall apart in your hands. 1095 is very tough and Kabar does a good HT, so its not gonna break easily even if you try

Who said anything about 1/4"? We're talking 5/32's here. The blade isn't diffentially heat treated, the blade is uniformly hard from spine to edge. We were talking about using such a blade to pry with, before this thread got moved. I wouldn't use a blade like this to pry with, would you? It's a fine fighting blade, but tough or not, it's not designed to pry with.
 
Moose, it would be helpful if you could move the thread starting with my question and Toooj's answer. As is, the thread is disjointed.
 
Dave, if you wanna discuss Kabar knives and designs, brother you have found the right place. :D

In a previous post, I said the fuller was there to reduce weight and maintain strengh, not add to it. The fuller does just that, without sharp radii, its maintains the strength. No stronger, just not any weaker.

I've taken the USMC F/U knife as far as it could go. I keep this picture here,



as a reminder to help me keep somethings in perspective. I also still have the knife pieces as well.

This knife right here, was my primary one and only knife for around 3 years. When I say the only one, I mean it. I wasn't the knife knut whore that I am know, I just used what worked. And it worked.

I batoned wood. Lots of wood. Dug up rocks for bait, gut and cut animals from squirrel to deer, and everything else I killed in between. The first day I got it, I stabbed it into an empty 55 gallon drum, and twisted it until I opened a hole. Why did I do this? Not sure, I'm a little disturbed and have issues. :D

All the paint you see gone, is from use. Even in the fuller. That knife split every piece of hardwood that went in my wood burning stove, for 3 seasons. Every piece.

Its made hundreds of fires, from brewing tea, to warming up after a fall in the river while hiking. Bored holes in wood, chopped branches, and took probably the worst beating I've ever handed a knife, when it got it stuck in a piece of ash. There was no going back, so, me and the knife went forward.

It finally gave up the ghost one evening, when I was preparing a fire in my wood burning stove. It simply broke while being bashed with another piece of wood.

Here is the funny thing. The day it broke, I had been to Smoky Mountain Knife Works, and had just bought a brand new, Kabar 1217 USMC F/U knife. I hadn't even taken it out of the box yet, as when I got home, it was cold in the house, so, I was building a fire to warm it up.

I am a firm believer in the fact that the only reason the knife broke, was the fact that its relief had finally shown up for duty. Sounds corny, but I'm a believer in a many a strange thing. We might get into that later......

Regardless, the point of the story and pics, is that that knife in the picture was in no way shape or form, babied, at any point that I owned it. I had a Korean Vet for an uncle, and he swore that there was no better knife than the KABAR. The one he gave me, had seen war, and looked it. Still served me well for many years.

I think the one in the pic is my 3rd or 4th one. I tend to be hard on knives, and with that said, I'll still trust my life anyday, anytime, anywhere, to a Kabar Fighting/Utility knife.

So, in my next post, we can discuss some more metallurgical and magical aspect of the American Legend. :D

Moose
 
Who said anything about 1/4"? We're talking 5/32's here. The blade isn't diffentially heat treated, the blade is uniformly hard from spine to edge. We were talking about using such a blade to pry with, before this thread got moved. I wouldn't use a blade like this to pry with, would you? It's a fine fighting blade, but tough or not, it's not designed to pry with.

I think he was referring to the fact that it seems like these days, folks believe that if it ain't .250" thick, then is too weak to be of any use. Which, is wrong, as we all know.

Pry with it? I have pried LOTS with one. Fatwood from stumps, prying up rocks by jamming the tip under the edge of said rock, then stomping on the handle to liberate some stick bait for fishing. I "waggled" many a hole in a 55 gallon steel drum for building fires in my back yard, used it to pry boards loose on pallets for making a fire, chopped nails in half.

I've never broken a blade on one, but I have snapped the handle off a few......


Moose
 
Moose, I actually didn't come here to discuss the KA-BAR design, I just wanted to ask a question, it got answered, and then there were some follow -up's to a few more posts, and then it got moved here. You've offered convincing first hand experience, and I don't doubt you for a second.

But, the design is OLD, it can be improved. This knife, to me and probably 99% of Americans, is the flagship knife of KA-BAR. Why not look at the design and improve it? A simple thing like increasing the radius on the tang corners would help, according to your picture. 5/32's is a THIN blade, why not go to a 1/8 or 3/16's distally ground spine? Why not look at D2, or other steels more corrosion resistant, impact resistant, and with better edge retension? Why should the price point be kept at $100? What's wrong with a superior model that retails at $350-400.
Look, I honestly don't care. As I said, I made a Ka-bar style knife for my own use, it too is 1095, differentially heat treated, with a distally ground spine of 3/16th's at the guard and a strong tang with absolutley no way to fail from stress risers. That's what got me started on this little quest. I was surprised at the original design, and just wanted more info. Didn't come here to denigrate the design, or the maker, or the users.

Or, do you not think it could be improved?
 
Moose, I actually didn't come here to discuss the KA-BAR design, I just wanted to ask a question, it got answered, and then there were some follow -up's to a few more posts, and then it got moved here. You've offered convincing first hand experience, and I don't doubt you for a second.

But, the design is OLD, it can be improved. This knife, to me and probably 99% of Americans, is the flagship knife of KA-BAR. Why not look at the design and improve it? A simple thing like increasing the radius on the tang corners would help, according to your picture. 5/32's is a THIN blade, why not go to a 1/8 or 3/16's distally ground spine? Why not look at D2, or other steels more corrosion resistant, impact resistant, and with better edge retension? Why should the price point be kept at $100? What's wrong with a superior model that retails at $350-400.
Look, I honestly don't care. As I said, I made a Ka-bar style knife for my own use, it too is 1095, differentially heat treated, with a distally ground spine of 3/16th's at the guard and a strong tang with absolutley no way to fail from stress risers. That's what got me started on this little quest. I was surprised at the original design, and just wanted more info. Didn't come here to denigrate the design, or the maker, or the users.

Or, do you not think it could be improved?

Could it be improved? Oh hell yeah. Is it old? You bet your lunch it is.

Is Kabar resting on its laurels, just letting the F/U pull them along? Absolutely not.

Point in case,



They have made them from stainless, D2, big, small, leather, and Kraton. New sheaths, multi colors, and so on.

They are also working with designers and designs that will be changing the face of Kabar for a long time. You want a modern version of the F/U knife, look at the full tang design of the BK7. Robust, overbuilt, with no stress risers.

I think in keeping with the original design, they keep the nostalgia and reverence that we've come to love. You should see some of these old Vets that come to the shows, all they wanna do is fondle a knife and tell you stories. And you can see the memories happening in their eyes as they tell you and twirl the knife. Awesome.

I've been after John Stitt and Toooj both for years to make an American Legend in D2. No serrations, no Kraton handle, just the standard issue 1217 made from D2. Is it going to happen? Not sure, but its up to the Bald Bagel Eater and The Dreaded Toooj. I wanted a BK14 in a hyper steel, and I got a D2 version of that. And now, Kabar is playing with some new crucible steels, things could liven up.

Why haven't they completely revamped the whole design? Legacy and history, mostly. The MK2 is the most sold knife in the entire Kabar lineup. They sell more of them, 3:1 easily.

Plus, other companies are trying their best to "fix" the design flaws. Alabama Damascus makes a full tang, awesome MK2 design. Looks freakin' amazing. And works well. They increased the size of the tang on the CS Leatherneck, but with the good, comes the bad. The Alabama Damascus blade is heavy, and in a fighting knife, heavy means slow.

With the CS Leatherman, well, lets just say the ones I tested didn't last long. Good knives, but sure not as tough as the original.

The problem with a superior model that sells for $300-400, is that folks have come to see the Kabar as inexpensive, and available. Meaning you can find it on every military base in the world. Most outdoor stores carry them, as well. And for the cost, a soldier, adventurer, or just woods bum can get one, use the hell out of it, and not worry that they are taking a $400 knife to the mill.

This is a great discussion, and I really hope you aren't put off or see me as coming across as combative, I find all your points valid, and as a custom knife maker, when you get one done, call me or email me.

I assure you, I'll want one.

Moose
 
Well, I've really already made the points I had to make. I'm glad to see that new modern versions are in the works. I've seen Ka-Bar style knifes made by other companies, as well as Chinese knockoff's, and never could figure it out. Does anyone own the patent to the original Ka-Bars, or is it out there for anyone to make?. I made one for myself, simply because it's a damn cool looking knife, but I never really thought of selling them, because I thought I'd be infringing on patents, trademarks, etc. But, sure, I'll be e-mailing you when I get one done. You can judge it for yourself. What steel do you want?

I don't understand why Ka-bar let the public develop such cheap expectations. $100. for ANY knife is dirt cheap. $100 for a Ka-bar is a give away, even to a trooper in a PX. I hope a better, stronger version sharts to show up in the PX's and outdoors stores, if it hasn't already.
 
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Well, I've really already made the points I had to make. I'm glad to see that new modern versions are in the works. I've seen Ka-Bar style knifes made by other companies, as well as Chinese knockoff's, and never could figure it out. Does anyone own the patent to the original Ka-Bars, or is it out there for anyone to make?. I made one for myself, simply because it's a damn cool looking knife, but I never really thought of selling them, because I thought I'd be infringing on patents, trademarks, etc. But, sure, I'll be e-mailing you when I get one done. You can judge it for yourself. What steel do you want?

I don't understand why Ka-bar let the public develop such cheap expectations. $100. for ANY knife is dirt cheap. $100 for a Ka-bar is a give away, even to a trooper in a PX. I hope a better, stronger version sharts to show up in the PX's and outdoors stores, if it hasn't already.

From the original concept, the knife design was never patented. When the USA need the knives, the sent out a message, "Make the knives". Camillus, Kabar, Ontario, and many, many others make the Marine Fighting Utility Knife. The only thing that I think is Kabar's exclusively, is the oval handle. They are the only one's I've seen with an oval handle. The others, are round.

Cheap expectations seems a bit brusque to me. What I see is an American company doing all it can to hold the values of more knife for your dollar than anyone else can offer. Made in the USA, using USA materials and labor. Although the sheath is Hecho En Mexico, all components of the knife itself is dripping in Red, White, and Blue. There are many other companies offering knives at a much higher cost, so, that corner of the market is kind of locked. Wanna spend $600 on a knife, its out there.

$100 may seem low to some, high for others. When my knife journey began, I thought that $100 for a knife was an absurd amount of money for some sharpened steel. I now own knives that cost as much as a used car. A nice used car...............yeah, I can say I'm ashamed of that fact........but its my "thing". I dig knives, all knives, shitty or superb, I've never met a knife I didn't like. Take some poor Private or Lance Corporal that make barely enough money to cover their needs, like beer and hookers, $75 for a Kabar looks like a good investment.

Its all subjective really, and I can appreciate your perspective, as I agree with it, but coming from the other side of the looking glass, I see the other side as well.


Why do you say that? They make jack hammer bits out of D2. that's pretty impact resistant.

Temper and heat treat play a lot in this debate. D2 uses large carbide to create the wear resistance that it is known for. For items such as hammer bits, the RC is kept low, since you aren't really cutting the concrete, but breaking it through repeated impacts and weight.

Knife blades being smaller, and thinner, most malleable media put more lateral stress on the blade when cutting, which can sometimes break out the large carbides, some call it chipping.

I've seen it from both sides. I own Dozier's, Kabar's, and other D2 blades. Some have chipped out while trimming small green branches, others stay razor sharp for what seems like forever. Dozier's knives and D2 are made for cutting, you don't pound on them, the wicked deep hollow grind says that would be a bad idea with a $500 knife. But if you wanna cut flesh, you are gonna be at it a while before that Dozier dulls enough to even notice.

Low Rc D2 is as tough as woodpecker lips, nigh unbreakable, and tough enough to hold its shape even under the most demanding of circumstance. Thin, high Rc knife blades run the risk of chipping under lateral stress. Not too many large bladed D2 hackers out there, but there are some. Kershaw has one I think......

Anyways, I'm up for what ever steel you think would make a good Fighting/Utility knife. Hyper steel, super alloy, or just some good 'ol 1084 sounds good to me.

What design changes are you planning on making?

Moose
 
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