Katana cutting ability?

E

Elwin

Joined
Jan 4, 2002
Messages
183
This is my first post to this forum. If this topic has already been discussed in detail, please feel free to reference previous threads. How good did they cut, really. Nearly magical qualities are attributed to them. My martial arts school as a whole seems to hold an almost "undefeatable" attitude toward them. Individuals vary of course. Also, I read somewhere that the edges were used as quenched. Were the edges really used w/o being tempered, or was whatever I read wrong? I understand that a lot of the cutting ability of these swords comes from the curve and the way they were used (technique), but how much of it comes from the properties of the blade. Also, I have heard of a clay fired sword w/ the cutting edge on the inside of the curve. Anyone else know anything about it, or is it just rumor/myth. I have been interested in swords for several years, but have never handled a hand-forged, clay fired blade.
 
I hope you will get responses from the many forumites here who are much more expert on this topic than I. And there are many of them.
The katanas of Japan really did cut superbly, and so do modern ones, although a comparison is quite a question. Some of the old blades were tested on human bodies: sometimes cadavers and sometimes living. It was not unheard of for a sword to cut through three bodies. How's that for cutting ability?
Exactly why they cut so well is something one of the great smiths who frequent the forums has to tell you; or one of the sword or steel fanatics who seem to have researched everything about blades. But as I understand it, it wasn't any single factor that accounts for it: the japanese designs evolved over a long period of time and was a complex synergy of forging, hardening, geometry polishing and sword technique.
And if you've never handled a modern one, like a Hayes, Clark etc. or even a Yoshihara, you will be amazed at how incredibly well balanced they are. As for cutting ability: it's a priviledge to be able to train or cut with one. If you get the chance, grab it.
 
Thanks for the response. I read about a fellow in Oregon who was trained by some master smiths in Japan. He smelted his own steel, forged the blades and tested them on 1/2" diameter reinforcement bars for concrete. This wasnt good enough for him, so he moved up to 1/2" cable instead. His blades would cut free hanging rope with out damage, it just happened to be metal rope.
 
The katana is vastly overhyped. Don't get me wrong I like katana as much as the next guy, I think they are beautiful and they certainly are a good sword design. However this idea that they are better then any other sword type is the purest yishvish.

Traditional katana are differentially heat treated with the edge being harder then the spine.

You don't happen to remember the smith's name you are mentioning do you? There are only a couple of Japanese trained smiths that I am aware of in the U.S. I think Michael Bell lives in Oregon. I doubt very seriously that he tests his swords on iron bars or cables though. He does however make some katana out of cable. The only person I have heard of that makes a katana that might be capable of hitting an iron bar a few times with a chance of surviving is Howard Clark with one of his L6 super katana.
 
Dont remember the guys name. It was an article in knives illustrated about 2 years ,or more, ago. I keep kicking myself for not buying it. Most rebar isnt really that hard, only about 90,000 psi or so. Hardened steel is nearly 300000 psi or more in some cases. His cutting technique would have to be nearly perfect to avoid any undue lateral stress on the edge. I'm not going to say it cant be done, since you know of someone who's work can apparently handle it, but keep in mind I'm relying on memory from several years ago.

I'm going to have to give you a big agreement on the katana being overhyped, Triton. You said that Howard Clark uses L6. Do you know if he folds it or anything? I personally believe that modern steels dont need to be folded to produce good results. (boy thats pouring gas on a fire) A friend wants to buy a large 2 handed Japanese sword, and I recommended that he have it made from L6, S7, or 5160. At least I know one of my choices was right. At the time, CPM S3V wasnt available, or I didnt know about it.

One other thing about the mystery smith I just remembered. He only used iron and carbon in his steel. There was no manganese, or any other element for that matter. I'll bet that was fun for the first few tries at quenching in water.
 
Being fairly well aquainted with the properties of steel and a beginning knifemaker to boot, I can tell you that no one is going to cut a free hanging 1/2" metal cable with a sword. Pair of bolt cutters perhaps. Now, if the cable were laid on a 2x4 and chopped at...I can see that. The sword would suffer damage though.
 
I'm not sure that even Howard Clark would want to use one of his L6 katana on rebar, although I know he did destructively test one on stuff like concrete blocks (no edge damage) and finally only managed to get a slight ding on a piece of irrigation pipe. Still that is not something he would want to do on a daily basis.

I don't believe that Howard Clark folds the L6 katana although he does differentially harden them.
 
I was under the impression that water quenching was required for a temper line, at least w/o etching to find it. Can you get a temper line in L6, or perhaps O1, w/ an oil quench, or do you have to just use water on these two steels?
A concrete block is pretty impressive. I certainly dont own anything that would withstand that kind of abuse.
Bob Engnath's yakiba blades had a hardness of 57-58 at the edge. What is the hardness of a traditional model? I think Engnath used 1045 or 1050 steel.
 
It's my understanding that the hamon (temperline) is actually put on by layering clay (or some reasonable facsimile thereof) along the edge. The difference in the cooling rate creates the different types of steel structure and the hamon. An edge quench is something used by an outfit like Kris Cutlery. It takes a good polish to bring out a hamon, no matter what method is used.
 
Triton,
Alot of challenging things have been said. Interesting. But I have only one question.

Yishvish?

That's my new word for the day :D
 
As for a free hanging cable...not possible. Re-bar...maybe...from what I understand re-bar is pretty much 'crap metal', it is made of whatever can be melted down. Sometimes it is extremely brittle, sometimes it is extremely soft, and still other times it is springy. I learned this from a friend who welded the stuff together for a few years...outside temp has alot of significance on the stuff also.

Also, from personal experience, technique is everything. Mushashi only used a stick to kill most of his enemies. The blade was and is more a symbol of status. Expensive and overrated...yeah you can cut stuff with it, but much like a piano, anyone can own one, the question is how well you can play it.
 
Just to chime in. Alota cultures edge hardened blades, as well as having laminated blades. Also alota cultures you read acounts of extreme cutting abilities. There well documented accounts of horses being cut in half by kampilans in battle, as well as people being literally cut from head to toe. There are documented cases of people being cut in clean half by toledo blades as well in the Spain's various conquests. Realistically there is just alot more hype about katanas. A good sword is only as good as the person wielding it. I dont do much test cutting, but from what Ive done Im not overly impressed with a katana. Then again Im not too fond of two-handed swords.
 
I once read an account of a cavalry battle, as written from the doctor treating the sword wounds. There were several severed limbs mentioned, as well as 2 hands severed while being held up to protect the head, which was also severed. This was in a western setting, I believe around the 1700's. The wounds were apparently produced w/ captured and rehandled cavalry sabres. I may be wrong on some things. Did anyone else read this article. It was in a martial arts magazine about a year ago. Ive moved twice since then; I'm lucky I got my furniture here.
 
HJK,

Well, I must admit I didn't invent the word. It actually came from a Keith Laumer series starring an intergalactic diplomat at arms named Retief. Yishvish was a word meaning "nonsense" used by Retief's foes the five eyed, sticky fingered Groaci. You should check it out sometime. The first person that says the word "nerd" is going to get it! :)
 
SamuraiDave,

I believe he is refering to Micheal Bell. In one of the interviews I read of him, he did mention he tests his blade on cable. If it was free hanging or not I don't know. Now that I've butted in.....:)
 
Excuse the off-topicness:

Triton, I love Keith Laumer. I read Zone Yellow years ago and have kept my eye open ever since for more of his books but they're so hard to find, at least in bookstores. Many of the Retief books have been out of print since they were originally published. Guess I'll have to order from Amazon.com if I want to read more of his stuff.
 
The more I think about it, I may have read the article wrong, or just assumed he was using free hanging cable. I dont recall it actually saying that though.
 
I'm going to start this off by saying that I truly do love katanas. The lines, the beauty, the skill required to properly make one; all these combine to create a sword of beauty, and if done right, utility. Probably my favorite style of sword overall. Now, I'm also going to say this: I agree with Triton. The katana is overhyped. We've probably all heard the story of the Marine facing the Japanese soldier in WWII. The Japanse soldier advanced with his katana, and swung a mighty blow at the Marine. The Marine raised his M1 Garand to block, but the lightsab... uh, I mean katana cut right through the barrell, through the Marine's helmet, and straight on into his head!!! And just so you all know, it highly doubtful that the soldier was carrying an actual katana. He was probably carrying a gunto. These were made in factories in Japan, and distributed freely to soldiers(kinda liket he Ka-Bar, I guess) These swords weren't really the highest quality, either. I have one, and while, yeah, it's nice, there's no way in hell I'd try go into battle with one. Heck, the blade would probably snap off, fly back, and take ME out.
Now, katanas were excellent cutters. That's what they were made to do, after all. Of course, they were fighting against opponents clad in leather and bamboo armor, coated in laquer, so it was all good.
And, Triton's right again, the hamon is made by layering on clay in the pattern you want, and then quenching the blade.

BryanH
 
Triton :

[Clark]

he did destructively test one on stuff like concrete blocks (no edge damage)
Click to expand...

I would be curious as to the geometry of the edge that would allow an impact off of a concrete block to show no visible edge damage. To do it and still allow the blade to actually be able to cut something would be quite impressive, assuming of course that the chops were hard enough to shatter the concrete. L6 is quite a tough steel and yes it will not fracture easily, even under high stress, but it can however be impacted/deformed on contacts with objects of decent hardness.

While concrete itself is really soft when it has no rock filler, you can for example chop up a concrete weight with an Ontario machete with no visible edge damage, concrete blocks on the other hand have a decent amount of rock in them. The chops would have to be very light not to impact the blade as the rock is hard enough to cut steel, let alone impact/deform it which is much easier. It also depends on how he is doing the chopping, an impact on the edge of a block for example will induce damage far more readily than one across the top because the difference in induced pressure will be huge.

In regards to cutting cable and rebar, there is a huge amount of technique involved in how stressful the work is on the blade as with any cutting. It is impossible to judge if you are seeing something dependent on the skill of the user, or the quality of his blades. If the person doing it could only do the cutting with a particular blade, then you have an argument for the blade cutting ability and durabilty.

-Cliff
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top