Keen Kutter : How Old, How Hard, Relative Quality Level ?

Wowbagger · May 13, 2018

I've been thinking I want to sharpen up this Keen Kutter to a polished edge and EDC it at work for a while. Just for the experience. You know . . . see how it was back in the day.

A few questions if you please :

What do you suppose the hardness is ? 55 ? 58 ? . . . less ?
How old is this ? It is at the very least sixty years old or so. I think it was my Grand Father's who I only met once (that I can recall) when I was three or four. It has a bunch of over sharpening on it so it wasn't new even back then.
What is the quality / price level roughly speaking ? (I know it isn't worth anything except to me but I want some perspective).

These are old photos I had lying around; disregard his razor and razor stone.

abbydaddy · May 13, 2018

The first bit of information I will offer you is this: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/new-members-please-read-this-what-is-my-knife-worth.1154214/

As to the hardness and age, I am afraid I don't know, though perhaps someone more versed in Keen Kutters will come along.

Although,

Wowbagger , you are not at all new to the forum.

supratentorial · May 13, 2018

It's "Keen". No "L".

What do you suppose the hardness is ? 55 ? 58 ? . . . less ?

The "color of the heat" was used to do the heat treat in the early days. In the 1950s, they started using pyrometers. Rockwell wasn't widely used in marketing until later. I don't know the exact rockwell number. Hopefully the blade was kept cool when it was completely resurfaced since that could affect the hardness.

How old is this ? It is at the very least sixty years old or so. I think it was my Grand Father's who I only met once (that I can recall) when I was three or four. It has a bunch of over sharpening on it so it wasn't new even back then.

The photo is very blurry and I can't see the stamp clearly. Is the stamp missing "EC Simmons"? Is that correct? Then it's post 1940s. Made for Shapleigh. If it's not correct, then it was made earlier for Simmons.

What is the quality / price level roughly speaking ? (I know it isn't worth anything except to me but I want some perspective).

The quality is not really fair to judge when the knife is heavily worn. When pre 1940s Simmons "Keen Kutter" (Winchester) knives are well preserved, the quality is high. Multiple companies made "Keen Kutter" knives for Shapleigh after the 1940s They were generally good knives. Camillus and Schrade made some.

As noted by another member, discussion of value is not allowed. In general, barlows were affordable knives.

afishhunter · May 13, 2018

Back in the day, I believe Keen Kutter competed at the KutMaster, Colonial, and Imperial price point, so they were an "inexpensive" knife.
However, like their competition, they had good steel (probably 1095) for the blades.
I don't know for sure, but my guess is the heat treat and hardness is probably close to what a new 1095 blade today would have..

As for the age, Google "Keen Kutter Tang Stamp Chart".
That should help.
I can't make out the tang stamp in your knife.

black mamba · May 13, 2018

I know that Case knives from that period were softer than today's CV, sometimes as low as the low to mid 50s. I suspect the Keen Kutter blades from before the war (II) were in the same ballpark.

Hickory n steel · May 13, 2018

I'm sure it's a fine knife with a steel that takes a hair popping edge in no time, sharpen it up and try it out.
Use is the only way you'll find out about the edge retention.

Wowbagger · May 14, 2018

“Keen” not Kleen"

; got it . . . how embaraskin.

Nope; no EC Simons or any other lettering other than on the blade is has :" K1771 3/4" and "Keen Kutter" on the other side of the blade with what looks vaguely like a chef’s hat around it.

One thing I notice is the pivot is a little bit prominent of the plates and the pivot on one side is center punched roughly in the center and on the other side the pivot is “center punched” three times, not in the center. Was this done by someone other than a factory worker to tighten the pivot (it has some play now) or was this done at the factory ?

The quality is not really fair to judge when the knife is heavily worn.

I meant when it was new BACK THEN IN ~1940 in box compared to other offerings of the day BACK THEN IN ~1940 both higher priced and lower priced.

It seems to be made after 1940 so sounds like it is perhaps made for Shapleigh and could have been made by one of several different companies.

As noted by another member, discussion of value is not allowed.

This is overly strict or ______. Everyone reading this knows the blade is half destroyed and so near valueless to resell. I didn’t ask DOLLAR VALUE I asked relative value when it was purchased back in the day compared to other offerings which could be answered with a simple and blisteringly vague. . . when new :

That was bargain basement junk back then
That was cheep but usable.
That was actually quite good and affordable
That was actually quite good but pricy
That was fantastic but not many could afford one

. . . ect. . . .

Multiple companies made "Keen Kutter" knives for Shapleigh after the 1940s They were generally good knives.

In general, barlows were affordable knives.

Back in the day, I believe Keen Kutter competed at the KutMaster, Colonial, and Imperial price point, so they were an "inexpensive" knife.

There see.
THANK YOU !

I know that Case knives from that period were softer than today's CV, sometimes as low as the low to mid 50s. I suspect the Keen Kutter blades from before the war (II) were in the same ballpark.

That’s kind of what I had in the back of my little pea brain that pocket knives back then were pretty soft. Pretty soft to me meaning sub 55.

hmmmmmmm . . . . going to be easy to sharpen . . . hahaha

I have some links to follow and study.

thank you all so much.

supratentorial · May 14, 2018

Wowbagger said:
; got it . . . how embaraskin.

Nope; no EC Simons or any other lettering other than on the blade is has :" K1771 3/4" and "Keen Kutter" on the other side of the blade with what looks vaguely like a chef’s hat around it.

One thing I notice is the pivot is a little bit prominent of the plates and the pivot on one side is center punched roughly in the center and on the other side the pivot is “center punched” three times, not in the center. Was this done by someone other than a factory worker to tighten the pivot (it has some play now) or was this done at the factory ?

It was done by a prior owner, not by the factory.

Wowbagger said:
I meant when it was new in box compared to other offerings of the day both higher priced and lower priced.

It seems to be made before 1940 so sounds like it is perhaps made by Simmons "Keen Kutter" (Winchester).

You've got it reversed. It was made after 1940 for Shapleigh

Wowbagger said:
This is overly strict or ______. Everyone reading this knows the blade is half destroyed and so near valueless to resell. I didn’t ask DOLLAR VALUE I asked relative value when it was purchased back in the day compared to other offerings which could be answered with a simple and blisteringly vague. . . when new :

I wouldn't make the same comparison. I think your knife was a better knife than the examples given.

Wowbagger said:
That was bargain basement junk back then

That was cheep but usable.

That was actually quite good and affordable

That was actually quite good but pricy

That was fantastic but not many could afford one

. . . ect. . . .

Good and affordable. The value is about tree fiddy.

Wowbagger · May 14, 2018

You've got it reversed. It was made after 1940 for Shapleigh

Thanks . . . I was hurrying to get my thoughts down in a text document before we ate dinner and got it reversed. I went back way later and reread everything and found I screwed it up.
thanks

supratentorial said:
Good and affordable

Good . . . that's how it seems.

Haven't had much luck Googling for a tang stamp chart. I guess I need to search back more than a page of Google results.

abbydaddy · May 14, 2018

supratentorial said:
It was done by a prior owner, not by the factory.

You've got it reversed. It was made after 1940 for Shapleigh

I wouldn't make the same comparison. I think your knife was a better knife than the examples given.

Good and affordable. The value is about tree fiddy.

I hadn't understood what

Wowbagger was asking. I didn't think it was at all clear that he was asking what sort of price it was originally sold at when new. But I actually find the question very interesting myself. What was the original, affordable, price for a knife like the Keen Kutter. Your crack about tree fiddy reminded me of when I was researching my Paige-Lewis Sprinfield Jr. .22 that was originally my great-great-grandfathers. When new, it actually was $3.98. That was a bit earlier than maybe this Keen Kutter, but now I really wonder what the original price point was.

supratentorial · May 14, 2018

Wowbagger said:
Thanks . . . I was hurrying to get my thoughts down in a text document before we ate dinner and got it reversed. I went back way later and reread everything and found I screwed it up.
thanks

Good . . . that's how it seems.

Haven't had much luck Googling for a tang stamp chart. I guess I need to search back more than a page of Google results.

A tang stamp chart won't help. You'd need to dig through old catalogs to narrow it down further. Off the top of my head without digging through old catalogs, I'd guess 40s or 50s.

abbydaddy said:
I hadn't understood what Wowbagger was asking. I didn't think it was at all clear that he was asking what sort of price it was originally sold at when new. But I actually find the question very interesting myself. What was the original, affordable, price for a knife like the Keen Kutter. Your crack about tree fiddy reminded me of when I was researching my Paige-Lewis Sprinfield Jr. .22 that was originally my great-great-grandfathers. When new, it actually was $3.98. That was a bit earlier than maybe this Keen Kutter, but now I really wonder what the original price point was.

This is an older example from 1923. I had that handy. To find a Shapleigh grand daddy barlow in a catalog from the 40s or 50s, I'd need to dig through catalogs to find examples. It gives some idea of how prices compared for some patterns in 1923. Prices are per dozen.

Wowbagger · May 14, 2018

abbydaddy said:
I hadn't understood what Wowbagger was asking. I didn't think it was at all clear that he was asking what sort of price it was originally sold at when new.

I wasn't.
Let me reword it yet again : On a scale of one to ten where does this knife of mine fall compared to all the other knives of a similar type / size on offer back in 1940 ?

Sounds like it is a three or maybe if we stretch it a four.
There . . . no dollars discussed.

One being "Don't pick that up it might fall apart and then the store manager would say you have to buy it because you broke it".
and
Ten being "solid gold pins and diamond studded scales (for better grip in place of the jimping) with hand forged blade heat treated by one of only two people in the world who know how to bring out the best in this steel".

Will Power · May 14, 2018

Some of those pictures from the old catalogue are enough to set the driest of mouthes watering....

supratentorial · May 14, 2018

Certainly some nice knives on that page!

danno50 · May 14, 2018

Here is a 1939 Simmons catalog page with that knife. Note the price given is for each knife and is $1.00. Also a catalog page from a 1959 Shapleigh catalog. Again price given is per knife and the price is $2.45. Your knife when new would fall somewhere between those two values. As Supratentorial has stated your knife was made for Shapleigh and he also gave his age estimate as somewhere in the 40s or 50s. I believe that that is as close as you are going to get for a date for your knife. Please note that my catalog pages come from either the Roses Auction web site (http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/rose-tools-catalog-archives/index.html) or the collectors-of-schrades-r-us website (http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us). I have previously contacted both sites and received permission to post pages in online knife forums.

Wowbagger · May 14, 2018

danno50 said:
Here is a 1939 Simmons catalog page with that knife. . . . .Also a catalog page from a 1959 Shapleigh catalog. . . . As Supratentorial has stated your knife was made for Shapleigh and he also gave his age estimate as somewhere in the 40s or 50s. I believe that that is as close as you are going to get

FANTASTIC !
Thank you for the catalog pages. Quite interesting.
Five inches . . . yep that's what the handle is (just a touch more).
That was my next question : How long was the blade when new ? It is a scosche over 3 3/4 inches now.
The action feels quite good to me ; very smooth and not gritty or galled . . . nice solid half stop without being jarring. It feels like a "machine" or a nice tool. Not junky.
I was looking it over and it doesn't seem to have been dropped on a hard surface much if ever. Not chipped or dented or scraped. Obviously the blade didn't need all that abrasion to get sharp again. The way I sharpen I don't think I could wear that much metal away in two hundred years. Maybe I'm kidding my self. Maybe I'm not a farmer or what ever and am not aware of . . . to quote James Bond . . . "how much wear and tear happens in the field".
hahaha

Wowbagger · May 29, 2018

Finally got around to putting it on the Edge Pro.
The recurve took some fooling around.
The thick behind the edge was scary but it was almost flat sanded to the edge so once I found some kind of angle that I could sort of use all along on both sides I got a bur.
Of coarse then the bur in that pretty soft steel fought me.
Trims finger nail frighteningly well for some reason.
Even the glint in the edge is other worldly from what it usually looks like on my other bevels.
I'm sure this old dog has more than one bite left ! :thumbsup:

Gramps will be riding with me tomorrow in spirit.

Wowbagger · May 29, 2018

EDCed it at work today. Fairly light use compared to what I do with my M4 steel blades but I used it many times.
To my surprise it sucked at cutting up one card board box (that a light duty shower stall came in). It really had a lot of drag through the card board; could have been from the recurve (???).

From the tip to half way toward the rear the edge is rolled (to the left if holding the blade horizontally edge down. Even the tip is dulled and rolled. I didn't cut against any kind of surface I just held stuff in one hand and sliced with the other.

From the middle back to the pivot the edge is still sharpish and not rolled but will hardly catch on my nail and it was hair whittling when we left the house this morning.

ONE OTHER IDENTIFICATION THING I NOTICED :
The nail nick is not where the catalog shows it should be. Note in my first photo above that my nail nick is out below the clipped area not back below the spine.

What does it all mean ?
This was a priceless custom made only for the owner of the company and for gifts to his best friends at Christmas . . . right ?

supratentorial · May 29, 2018

Wowbagger said:
EDCed it at work today. Fairly light use compared to what I do with my M4 steel blades but I used it many times.
To my surprise it sucked at cutting up one card board box (that a light duty shower stall came in). It really had a lot of drag through the card board; could have been from the recurve (???).

From the tip to half way toward the rear the edge is rolled (to the left if holding the blade horizontally edge down. Even the tip is dulled and rolled. I didn't cut against any kind of surface I just held stuff in one hand and sliced with the other.

From the middle back to the pivot the edge is still sharpish and not rolled but will hardly catch on my nail and it was hair whittling when we left the house this morning.

ONE OTHER IDENTIFICATION THING I NOTICED :
The nail nick is not where the catalog shows it should be. Note in my first photo above that my nail nick is out below the clipped area not back below the spine.

What does it all mean ?
This was a priceless custom made only for the owner of the company and for gifts to his best friends at Christmas . . . right ?

Many (all?) of the catalog examples were not matches of the same era. It would take digging through lots of catalogs. I'd guess that your knife was made for Shapleigh by Camillus... after the early catalog examples and before the latest catalog example. Maybe around the time of this 1946 Camillus catalog.

You might try changing the edge angle if it's folding.