Kickboxing and boxing

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Mike990

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I know that people on this board have a variety of martial arts experience among them. But what's your take on plain old boxing and kick boxing. I was watching a class last night where both were being taught. Boy, all I can say is a good boxer is devastating. The blows come fast furious and powerful. You can see the speed is much quicker and the hits much harder than the average brawler.
And when you add the kicks to into the mix, it gets even better. While I would not want to say its the be all to end all, it sure looked effective to me. Not a lot of fancy techniques to memorize either from what I saw. Now Disarming moves are a whole different matter, but in just straight hand to hand it seemed kiss effective. Thoughts on this?
 
Here's my thoughts...

It is hard to find a better punching system than western boxing. THe asian martial arts have soem great punches as well, but a western boxer, overall, has many advantages. For street purposes, however, I'd want to train boxing with less padding when feasible. You won't be punching guys on the street with boxing gloves on, so I'd want to make the training a little more street oriented.

Kick Boxing offers some great techniques as well. The leg attacks ar eperhaps the best thing Kick Boxing adds to boxing, along with elbows and knees.

The only thing I worry about is the "other" stuff you might find on the street. Boxing would be great for your typical t.v. barroom brawl and such, but look at the UFC where the boxer was up against the nija guy.. Steve Jenum I think. The ninja closed the gap, threw the boxer and punched him from the mount! Punching can also be dangerous as far as the weakness (relatively speaking) of your fists. A good palm strike or well aimed chop can be devastating too while being much safer for your hands.

And, as many kick boxers know, a good destruction can defeat punches and kicks.

So, I like both arts. They both offer LOTS for the guy on the street. Just make sure you adapt them for the street. You don't want to box or kick box on the street at all. You want to use boxing skills/techniques and kick boxing skills/techniques along with your regular compliment of destructions, eye pokes, head butts, knives, sticks, guns and RUNNING AWAY!!!
 
Back in the infancy of "full contact" Karate matches, it didn't take long for fighters to abandon the traditional hand techniques of various karate styles and go to boxing techniques.
At the height of the PKA ( which, IMHO, had some of the best competition I've seen ) the fighters were incorporating a few MA derived hand techniques, such as the spinning backfist.

In more practical sparring, ie-no gloves, the one shortcoming of boxing that I've noticed is that most boxers don't handle being grabbed very well. A lot of boxers will leave a hand out where it can be grappled or otherwise attacked.

Another problem that someone with extensive boxing experience may face is the tendency to strike opponents in the head/face with unprotected hands, which can cause severe injury. Just a matter of re-training from the more "sportive" aspects of boxing to a combat-oriented mindset.
 
Boxing and kickboxing are both excellent arts that develop many solid striking skills that can be adapted effectively for street use. However, do not neglect to train in grappling and weapons techniques as well. A well-trained boxer is a formidable opponent, but I wouldn't expect him to last too long in a street fight against someone with extensive grappling experience. If you make sure to dedicate a portion of your training to each type of fighting, you'll be much more well-rounded and dangerous in a street fight.
 
It's interesting to me the changes in boxing over the years. The man who taught me boxing, (a 68 year old marines instructor), taught me to keep my fist straight with my wrist at all times and never punch so far that my elbow extended farther than 90 degrees. This allows you to remain effective against close-in wrestling techniques. To strike farther away you extended your front leg and then fall on it bringing all your weight down with your fist. For close in techniques you just pull back your front leg and fall with the punch. All the boxers I see punching the 250lb bag bare handed, with those long strikes, come away with hurt wrist. My way just toughens up my knuckles.
 
Boxing is a great art and prepares you for the reality of combat quite well given the sparring and conditioning involved. IMHO as a number of posters have already mentioned you need to adapt boxing to make it street effective by adding open hand strikes, knees, elbows, head-butts and low-line kicking as well as grappling and weapons training.

My teacher has an interest in the history of boxing and has taught me that in the 18th and 19th Century boxers used mainly vertical fist punching because this was the stronger structure and avided damaging your hand in a bare-knuckle situation. So you would see straight vertical fist punches, elbow down hooks and uppercuts to the head, while corkscrew punches and other variants would be restricted to soft targets such as the body. It was with the introduction of the boxing gloves and rules that boxing became a sport and corkscrew punches and elbow up hooks were seen targeted at the head.

Additionally according to my teacher old school boxing as a combat art used open hand strikes, elbows, head butts, knees, low line kicks and even a few throws! I know there are a few people who specialise in western martial arts and their history on this board. Could anyone please post and let me know if this is true?

Respectfully

Harry (UK)
 
Boxing is a great workout, and teaches enough skills to be effective in many fighting situations. Its not often that one runs into a grappler. I have done some of both and recommend cross training, but boxing (and getting used to being hit while boxing) in most cases is sufficient.
 
In my opinion the value of boxing is that it is a primarily offensive art and thus ideal for pre-emptive strikes. From a non-threatening posture, you can ask a question to engage your opponent's brain (and it can act as an action trigger for you) and then attack at full-speed with combinations you have practiced. In the UK, a self-defense guru called Geoff Thompson who has had hundreds of KOs in his years working as a bouncer advocates hitting the point of the jaw/chin as this concentrates the force of the blow, rocks the brain-pan and can cause unconsciousness. I have also found that hitting the side of the mandible closer to the cheek / ear causes shakiness in the knees / ankles and loss of balance.


Now the controversial part:
Most of the real fights I have seen or participated in flared up, escalated and were over in a matter of seconds, finished by a few deceisive strikes from the more mentally prepared party involved. Usually whoever hit first came out of top. Thus, largely speaking I am inclined to dismiss suggestions that because boxers don't know how to grapple there are big holes in what they are doing. If they want to RING FIGHT, then yes, I agree they need to learn the ground game. But if it's training for the majority of face-to-face fights, I think they've mismanaged the situation if the fight goes on for more than half a minute and goes to ground.
Even if it does go to ground, the boxer is likely to still be in better physical condition than his opponent, and if he gets on top, he can still deliver punches more ably than his opponent. What are the odds of a trained boxer finding himself in a streetfight with a trained groundfighter?
More to the point, what are the odds of people fighting on the ground for any length of time given that people attack and are attacked in groups: if it goes to ground then people start kicking you in the head, and you get up quickly or you don't get up at all.
 
Not to brag, but I'm very qualified to answer this one. I've been at good, solid traditional Japanese karate now for 28 years (I'm 38). I've always been a huge fan of boxing so at the end of my senior year in college when my wrestling career was over (not that it ever really got off of the ground) I joined the boxing club and commenced getting my ass whipped.
I then graduated and had 4 months before going to Marine Corps OCS. So, not being one to leave any unfinished business, I went to a top pro gym in the heart of the Philly 6 days a week. I hooked up with an amazing trainer who knew technique at least as well as anyone who ever lived. Very unfortunate that he was stoned or drunk at all times even when running his loan shark operation. I was abused by some top guys, but I wouldn't leave.
Then went into the Marine Corps, went through all of the initial training and entered every boxing smoker and dual meet (against the SEALS, LA Sherrifs, ect.) that there was. The Enlisted Marines loved to be able to hit an Officer as hard as possible although I gave most of them the beatings that they deserved.
Also, while in California I trained every Saturday in Van Nuys with some of the best kickboxers of all time. We just showed up after the formal classes and sparred and you never knew who would show up. It was kind of a dream.
Then got out of the Marines and continued amateur boxing until I came to the conclusion that I couldn't find the right person to properly guide me to the next level. So I began fighting on the national level of the traditional karate tournaments. There was very little money except for what I spent in air fare, hotels and rental cars and my wife became more and more annoyed so I stopped.
So with all of that a good boxer will mess you up something silly. Most everyone will be absolutely helpless against those hands. There's something about just focusing on the hands that makes them very effective. Also, boxers train very realistically. The technique, body positioning and movement is superior. I could hang with any kickboxer, but not so at all with any boxer.
Maybe it's just me, but my vote goes to boxing. As far as the UFC goes - it's awesome, but putting Mike Tyson in there is hopefully not legal.
 
Excellent post ankle pocket.
I love it when someone comes along and says what I was thinking so I don't have to break down and post, however you've inspired me.

I think a wrestling background finished with a good striking art is the best way to go. I did it kinda the reverse. Trained TKD first and then ran into a bunch of wrestlers who pretzelled my ass. I tried to console myself or perhaps learned that I had to make the first shot count against a wrestler, these guys were all friends.

By the way don't mess with ankle pocket. A boxer who trains is already head and shoulders above the normal slob who doesnt even make it to the gymn, though he may pay a membership;->
The hand speed, footwork, and the ability to take a hit will seem almost magical to your groggy grappling ass as he carefully jabs you into submission. (so as not to hurt his hands on your purpling face).
Dont kid yourself boxing translates very well to the street.

As far as the boxing/ kickboxing class goes, sounds great to me.
All you'd need is some grappling to round it all off.
If the intensty is high enough you should be battered, bruised, and in great shape after a while.
 
Boxing is very dangerous. When I was younger and into kenpo karate in the late '70s/early '80s my teacher had a background that included high school wrestling and boxing in the military. He would mix elements of those, plus the karate and Chinese martial arts principles during hard free-sparring. Sometimes other guests would come into the school to spar who had PKA kickboxing or boxing backgrounds. Even some of the boxers who were not highly skilled were tough to deal with due to complete familiarity with their hands. I learned a lot from sparring some of them and the kickboxers as well. Even with the boxing/kickboxing defenses, I experienced headaches after training on those days.

That said, not everyone is suited to boxing. Like any art or sport, just participating is no guarantee of reaching a level of proficiency in it. People use Mike Tyson or Roy Jones or Oscar DeLa Hoya or Shane Mosley as examples, but these guys are extreme cases, among the best of the best. The average person going into boxing, especially later in life with no amateur experience has no chance to be Tyson-like, just like the average person going into Chinese MA will not necessarily become another "Bruce Lee" or a master-level practitioner; or someone playing basketball as a hobby will not necessarily become the next Michael Jordan. The only reason I mention this is people will always point to the above-mentioned fighters as to why boxing is the ultimate method, and they are definitely not your average boxer (and I might add, your "average" boxer will easily out-punch the "average" karate black belt, at least in the ring).

Boxing and kickboxing are excellent, but IMHO one should not do hard sparring every single training day if you are learning as a hobby and not a pro. Injuries, esp. to the head, will add up over time even if the punches aren't knocking you down or visibly damaging you.

Just my .02.
Jim
 
At the risk of saying more than I should, let me offer that CJ probably has verrrrrrrry good information on this subject (hint, hint CJ ;) ), due to the fact that he was sought after to protect the life of one of the most well known professional boxers in the world, with whom he has consequently worked closely and regularly for several years now.

How bout' it CJ?
 
Something I thought I'd throw in here is Muay Thai, it's boxing/kickboxing, but of a slightly different nature than what most peopler appear to be talking about here. I believe Muay Thai is superior over Boxing and Kickboxing in that it trains in the use of Elbows and Knees, which they have proven to be very effective (just look at all the competitions where elbows and knees are illegal, they effectively train 'dirty fighting') and the intense condition in Muay Thai is also a notch above reguarl boxing and kickboxing. I would much rather have Muay Thai or Lethwei (a lesser known martial art that goes toe to toe, or rather fist to fist with Muay Thai in really brutal competitions involving hemp wraps with crushed glass instead of gloves) training than almost any other martial art (unarmed that is, armed is again a different story) because in practice it is a lot more brutal than most other things out there, therefore I'd be more prepared for a street fight than a Boxer. Boxers are great with their fists, they have awesome punches, but a low kick to the knee can cripple one, and people with little or no formal training will know this as well. For the street you are going to want to at least know how to defend against lower body attacks. Boxing doesn't deal with this at all, and Kickboxing because it restricts kicks to the legs, doesn't really deal with it either. Brazilian Jujutsu the way the Gracies practice it would also be a very good street fighting style, I think they just don't allow biting, eye gouges and fish hooks, which I don't think is a major drawback in a style. They are very basic moves, and a good practitioner will be able to tell whether or not they would have their eyes poked out or their cheek ripped in a real fight. Because it is Vale Tudo, they also do strikes quite well, though they probably don't have the same conditioning for that as a Boxer, they're quite a bit more versatile for fights. Savate (french boxing) would also be good for the street. It teaches fighting while wearing shoes, which is a bonus over a lot of other MAs, as well as teaching how to use hard toed shoes specifically. The cane fighting in Savate is also good for the street, because it increases the range, and allows striking without having to worry about injuring your hand. Without the cane it can hold it's own against boxing (I believe Savate practitioners have lost to boxers more than they've won, but it's appeared to have been good fights every time), and the cane would probably tip the scale, especially in the street.

Once I step out of the realm of unarmed combat, I would definitely prefer a knife fighting style for street fighting. The knife gives an awesome advantage in hand to hand fighting, practically neutralising a grappler, and seriously hindering a striker.

(Ok, so I threw a lot of things in there, so sue me :p)
 
First off, any contact martial art (and possibly sport) in which you hit, get hit, and focus on conditioning will leave you off better than before. But a few counter-points on why I don't believe Muay Thai is superior over Boxing for a street fight, especially for those leaning towards it for a self-defense. I'm not trying to get into a big "versus" thing here, just food for thought on an intellegent discussion like this one. Disclaimer again: Again not saying one is absolutely better, just some counter-points- as we all know it's the person that matters, right? ;)

First, elbows and knees aren't illegal necessarily because of effectiveness but for purity of the sports (usually a stand-up striking event), because once in that close in, the best option is often to begin grappling to shut down such strikes. So there's no point in reducing a striking match to grappling or letting athletes get nailed by blows they otherwise could avoid by grappling (sport Muay Thai has rules that minimize both problems so knees/elbows are used). Not that I wouldn't use a knee or elbow given the opportunity, but most boxers know how to throw an elbow (just miss the hook slightly) and many will see a knee opportunity in a clinch (a common "real fight" situation that the boxer will be more familiar with than your average drunk joe).

Second, intensity is not necessarily a good thing for a self-defense student. Muay Thai is a bit of a fad so they'll be many "fake" MT schools, but the "real" stuff and the conditioning required might be too much for anyone with only a day or two a week to spend. So most Muay Thai schools train students loaded with safety equipment and RESTRICT the use of elbows and knees. The brutality of the sport in Thailand says little for someone trying to learn it here and might simply mean the lives of the combatants are worth less than the entertainment of the crowd. Boxing is straight-forward, practically a combative. You'll know real quick if you're training at a hard boxing gym or an aerobic class... with MT, the distinction isn't always immediately clear, especially with inflated class prices (hey, boxing's often FREE!)- people get into the mentality, "I'm paying a ton of money for this so it MUST be good!"

Third, the proof is in the pudding. When Boxers and Muay Thai fighters meet, the Boxers most often wins. More Boxers successfully cross into Muay Thai than vice versa. On the street? Yes, a weakness of boxing may be the forward foot (though shouldn't take much to train on defending that), but Muay Thai suffers from an open guard, square stance, and low aggression (IMO). Watch some MT matches and you'll regularly see these guys popped in the jaw, the only reason they don't fall is because their square stance lacks power (arm punching/punching from the shoulder vs hips- like a hockey fight)... because of the energy and the "deadliness" involved they're also rather unaggressive if you ask me, with a heavy focus on defense. Could just be the lack of combos though.

In Boxing Heavyweights look for the quick KO and lighter classes go for points with furious flurry of combos (which really work effectively in most "real" fights provided you flurry first). When dealing with inexperienced fighters, low attacks aren't really common at all, though you can expect attempts at kicks to the shins/groin, "judo" take-down kick in a grapple, or tackle/shoot for the legs. For you're kneecap kick, the boxer just moves his feet, or lifts his leg slightly... then KOs the sucker while he's off balance (if the punch doesn't do it, hitting the floor will).

Just my opinion, but I'd get into one of those real boxing gyms and use the money saved towards BJJ or save even more money and wrestle instead of BJJ ('sides nearly all wrestlers are into MMAs or xtrain) then spend the money on knives, guns, cars, and training in their use! :p
 
I agree with Muay Thai being a fad you can get a lot of fake schools and with legal restrictions over here it also cuts down on it's effectiveness. But if you get someone who comes out of a Camp in Thailand after a few years, I'd definitely put my money on him winning over anyone else. An actual Thai (meaning nationality as well here) is considerably different from someone who just practices Muay Thai. In Thailand Muay Thai is practiced by a lot of people since they are 5 or 6 years old, and since so many people do it, you have to be really good to get somewhere. That's the kind of MT fighter I was talking about, sorry about not specifying that.

Also, I'm not sure where you got the idea that MT isn't agressive. Constant aggression is mandated in fights, and they had to put rules in to reduce the number of people getting killed in matches, and despite them fighters still get killed, I don't see very many boxers getting killed. And with the elbows and knees, it doesn't make sense that something would be outlawed just because it isn't effective and if you look at NHB fights you see a lot of elbow shots. Because MT fighters practice elbow fighting without padding, they are also less likely to get hurt hitting someone in a street fight. In boxing, gloves are used primarily to protect the hands, and also to spread the impact a bit. On the street, a boxer won't have the gloves to protect the hands, and because bare fist fighting is somewhat different from competitive boxing I can see hands getting broken. With elbows, if you don't break it in the ring, the chance of breaking it in the street is considerably lower.

From what I have read I've only seen MT fighters beating boxers and not the other way around. It would be interesting if we can compare notes and get the actual picture, cause I know MT proponents wouldn't be eager to make it known that they've lost to other fighters, and the same for boxing proponents.
 
Just one little side note: There's no way that I can say what type of training or approach is better as I'd like to stay away from anyone who's proficient at any style. But as a comparison, I've sparred with smaller guys who were world class MT fighters, but lacked power and they were pretty easy to deal with and I've sparred with bigger guys who lacked skill, but were very powerful and athletic and they could put a hurt'in on real fast. I'm not sure what that means, but it just popped into my head and it might be important.
 
Thank you very much for getting me involved on this thread Mr. Prisco you hosehead! I was specifically avoiding it as I didn't see any constructive direction just a lot of opinions.
I don't mean any offense to you all I realize that everyone has been very sincere with your respective inputs. But I am not even sure if there was a question, I see this as the 9mm vs. .45cal debate.
I am not very big on war-stories without a specific constructive intent, and I do not discuss publicly, specifics about my work relationships.
I will say however that over past few years I have gained a very valuable insight into the science and world of boxing with arguably one of the best fighters ever, pound for pound. I am not sure what you guys are looking for or even asking but when Mr. Prisco says jump I have to say how high!
So, first of all lets get our vocabulary down; when you speak of sport oriented skills please note that they HAVE RULES. Next when one speaks of Martial Arts one must understand that the Arts refer to concepts that may refer to tradition and purity of concepts not necessarily that which is most practical, and if they were practical at one time one must appreciate that time period and acknowledge the armor or weapons that were being considered then.
All I want to say is I am only concerned with real life and the street, I fought full contact in the Navy, (which basically means sand-lot fights everywhere and anywhere with many different countries indigenous arts or fighting styles) and I will not be involved with any sport oriented fighting skill again. As I was taught, believe and follow you perform based on your training, and all sport oriented fighting must have rules! THERE ARE NO RULES ON THE STREET! One's training must reflect this or else.
Please understand I realize everyone is just trying to gain experience the only way they know how and I appreciate that but you have to have people there that can help you purge the reality out of the sport.
Even the best boxers in the world hurt their hands, wrists etc. I cannot afford to punch if that will break my hand thus resulting in inability to fire my weapon.
Rule #1, in my business is don't hurt yourself.
An elbow or knee can be so much more devastating than a punch at a greater variable of angles and ability, also given the necessary training time in order to become effective.
Head butts should all ways be a primary weapon it is all ways there and does not require chambering.
Have you ever gabbed a good boxers hand like a trap? This is primary. Our body/mind is made up of an infinite amount of weapons that we must be able to use independently and not necessarily instinctively but with thought, just real F-ing fast, so that on the outside it looks instinctive.
These techniques are just a few examples of strikes and concepts that I can pass on to a person quicker with less chance of injury to themselves with greater effectiveness over all in a very short time. Not to mention the secrets of practice.
I believe someone brought up low kicks to the knees; there isn't one boxer in the world that could withstand that kick from the likes of a master i.e. (Don Wilson, Benny the Jet and so many unnamed beyond competition).
In order to choke one has to be very close to the opponent, this makes eye gouges very practical not to mention the introduction of weapons like a knife!
Muay Thai strikes are often straight ahead, on other threads there was great chatter about the values of stepping to the .45% angles in reference to a knife attack, this is critical for everything, even shooting. Why do you think cops approach a vehicle from the rear .45? Because a vehicle is made for a human thus the same characteristics or should I say limitations are involved (see things that are small in a big way and that which is big in a small way). THERE YOU GO PETER!
I am not sure what the differences of wrestling/grappling are to you all unless it is just semantics, but almost all real fights that go past the initial few blows generally end up on the ground or at least one opponent tries very hard for this, (the one who is getting hit more usually). Therefore these skills must be known and used when appropriate. Freestyle wrestling will not hold up in UFC because one must stay on their backs if they are taken down, this goes against all the years of competition training.
I guess in the end it is being able to appropriately apply what you know; understanding the limits of physiology is critical. I do not believe in pain compliance, when knowing the limits of human physiology is more affective more often. Being well rounded in fighting skills and recognizing the differences between sport and the street cannot be understated. Knowing how to practice and train, so that your skills are part of your life is paramount. Truly, not feeling that you have to prove it, because you already know, is a definite sign that your training is paying off.
This is one of the hardest things to accomplish without experience so your training must be as realistic as possible, this means possible injury (physically/mentally) but as long as someone else is there to help in control this can be kept to a minimum.
As we have said here before if the human animal fears for his life and wants to survive and has the will to fight, than that attitude alone is invaluable regardless of the rest of the formula.
Remember I feel very strongly about this, our fighting skills are the same whether I have a knife, gun, stick etc. and they must all enhance each other. Therefore one must learn the relevant characteristics of all.
Finally it has taken me 41 years of being me, to say all of this. Some of you may have walked a different path and accomplished more, faster, I don't know but yet some of you have to realize there are some elements that are inherent and I don't know if they can be taught.
All kidding aside, thanks Andy for getting me to formulate some thought here, I hope it will help someone.
 
Originally posted by CJ Caracci

Head butts should all ways be a primary weapon it is all ways there and does not require chambering.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to be a pain, but isn't a head but more dangerous to do than a punch? If you punch you can break your hand, it hurts, but the danger ends there. If you do a headbutt you can get yourself a cuncussion, fracture, split your scalp causing external bleeding, get internall hemoraging (sp?) and suffer brain dammage. I would really try to keep my head out of a fight and doing a headbutt seems counterproductive to that goal.
 
Migo,
I did make a response here but I have chosen to withdraw it.I obviously did not explain myself very clearly, Excuse me.
I wish only to say I believe you are misguided in your understanding of this technique.
 
To return to topic, I believe the original post was regarding boxer vs brawler using boxing learned in a class on the street (disarming moves, etc). In that respect, I think traveling to Thailand to train in Muay Thai, Boxer vs MT, or Boxers getting low kicked by MA Masters is pretty irrelevant.

Boxing is not a complete MA nor does it claim to be but even every "complete" MA can be criticized (except, apparently, combatives- but those are hard to quantifiably measure... not that UFC/MAA events are necessarily a good measure). I've never learned boxing in a "class" before so if you are attending you might want to get personal instruction after class (of course, make sure you're not attending an aerobic boxing class!). There's more to life than living every moment tactically so there's nothing wrong with enjoying a sport as a sport... if you get some side SD benefit out of it too, great.

(side topic: There's more money in boxing in the USA, so you'll see more MT xover into boxing than vice versa... but I guess those guys aren't purists/Thai- actually, they're often Russian *shrug*- so I guess you wouldn't respect them anyways, migo, but they don't do too well @ boxing. %-wise, since more of them xover I guess you'll get more success stories. The few guys I know that xovered from boxing to MT, either couldn't cut it as boxers or were looking to supplement their income- not exactly purists either- but they managed to get further along in the rankings than vice versa)
 
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