Kickboxing and boxing
- Thread starter Mike990
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If anyone knows more about this than I do, please correct me.
I read many years ago that Muhammad Ali, while still heavyweight champion, fought a Japanese fighter, not a boxer, in Japan.
I don't know about gloves or ring size or rules; only that Ali did undertake some preparatory training regarding the Japanese fighter's style.
I vaguely remember that Ali took a number of kicks to the legs, and that otherwise the match proved inconclusive.
No winner.
Recently I watched the documentary on the Ali/Foreman fight and it included clips from several of Ali's fights.
What extraordinary movement!
Not all of us, probably none of us, can move like Ali in his prime.
My point?
Talent.
I think more than the specific style or form, talent matters.
Apparently, two very talented guys from different disciplines can cancel each other out.
Anyway, I would like to know more about this fight, including whether or not it actually took place.
It might shed some light on the present topic.
I read many years ago that Muhammad Ali, while still heavyweight champion, fought a Japanese fighter, not a boxer, in Japan.
I don't know about gloves or ring size or rules; only that Ali did undertake some preparatory training regarding the Japanese fighter's style.
I vaguely remember that Ali took a number of kicks to the legs, and that otherwise the match proved inconclusive.
No winner.
Recently I watched the documentary on the Ali/Foreman fight and it included clips from several of Ali's fights.
What extraordinary movement!
Not all of us, probably none of us, can move like Ali in his prime.
My point?
Talent.
I think more than the specific style or form, talent matters.
Apparently, two very talented guys from different disciplines can cancel each other out.
Anyway, I would like to know more about this fight, including whether or not it actually took place.
It might shed some light on the present topic.
Well, as long as we're being anecdotal... Dempsey is known to have laid out two would-be muggers while he was advanced in his years (documented in at least 2 books that I've read). That's multiple opponents attacking one elderly gentleman. Dempsey's known more as a slugger than a technical genius at that.
I've never heard about that Ali fight and I've read my fair share of biographies... but one of the common things I hear a lot is how Bruce Lee said Muhammad Ali would easily defeat him in a fight (or something to that effect). [Edit... Antonio Inoki, right, of course! Forgot 'bout that one. Sorta just catalogued it in my mind along with DC Comics "Superman vs Muhammad Ali" check it out here )
I've never heard about that Ali fight and I've read my fair share of biographies... but one of the common things I hear a lot is how Bruce Lee said Muhammad Ali would easily defeat him in a fight (or something to that effect). [Edit... Antonio Inoki, right, of course! Forgot 'bout that one. Sorta just catalogued it in my mind along with DC Comics "Superman vs Muhammad Ali" check it out here )
Yes, Inoki. I was about to put that in, and Xian beat me to it. I remember talk about it at the time, back when I was in elementary school, so that would've been maybe early 70s? Then just in the last couple years as I've come back to studying this stuff a little, I've come across a couple things...
My understanding from snippets I've read is that Inoki was trained as a catch wrestler (submission wrestling). The rules for the bout with Ali prohibited takedowns, chokes, locks - all those things that a catch wrestler would be inclined to do by training, so Inoki pretty much kicked from the ground to stay way from Ali's strength with his hands. And so it must not have been much of a bout. But probably an okay strategy under the circumstances.
Again we have that this was a bout with rules. There must be rules, because no one WANTS to go at it without them. I hope; I know I don't. Fighting without rules is called war, or combat, and that's something we train for out of necessity, not because it's something we want to try. But of course, rules imply restrictions, and so someone will always be restricted from using some technique that might have been the big winner...
Steve
My understanding from snippets I've read is that Inoki was trained as a catch wrestler (submission wrestling). The rules for the bout with Ali prohibited takedowns, chokes, locks - all those things that a catch wrestler would be inclined to do by training, so Inoki pretty much kicked from the ground to stay way from Ali's strength with his hands. And so it must not have been much of a bout. But probably an okay strategy under the circumstances.
Again we have that this was a bout with rules. There must be rules, because no one WANTS to go at it without them. I hope; I know I don't. Fighting without rules is called war, or combat, and that's something we train for out of necessity, not because it's something we want to try. But of course, rules imply restrictions, and so someone will always be restricted from using some technique that might have been the big winner...
Steve
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I remember that one with Ali vs. Inoki. It was pretty sloppy as Ali just kept getting kicked in the thigh. It was around the same time that Ali had a little tussle in the WWF ring with Gorilla Monsoon and Monsoon got the better of it. So there's a chance that Ali was just helping some of the organizations market themselves at hopefully a high fee.
The only measure that I can think of is to "Get it On" in the Octagon without pads. The only rules are no groin, eye and throat strikes. Mouthpieces and cups are OK. No guns or knives either.
The only measure that I can think of is to "Get it On" in the Octagon without pads. The only rules are no groin, eye and throat strikes. Mouthpieces and cups are OK. No guns or knives either.
I heard the referee for the Ali/Inoki bout was "judo" Gene LeBell, himself an awesome grappler. As mentioned, it was mostly Inoki on his back and Ali getting kicked around the legs. They show some of the bout on a video called Kings of the Square Ring (as I remember). I heard that although the bout was a stinker, that Ali had hematomas in his legs after the bout that might have been one of the many factors that contributed to his decline in the ring (greater factors being, of course, his wars with Foreman, Frazier, and Norton, but a factor nonetheless)besides plain age.
Jack Dempsey, unlike most modern-day boxers, extensively studied the art of hitting without gloves as well as with. He favored a 3-knuckle impact (middle, ring, and pinky base knuckles) similar in some ways to Wing Chun's impact point. He also favored the vertical fist and felt the full twist punch in boxing was over-emphasized. To him, boxing was not only a sport but his means of unarmed self-defense and trained in that way.
Jim
Jack Dempsey, unlike most modern-day boxers, extensively studied the art of hitting without gloves as well as with. He favored a 3-knuckle impact (middle, ring, and pinky base knuckles) similar in some ways to Wing Chun's impact point. He also favored the vertical fist and felt the full twist punch in boxing was over-emphasized. To him, boxing was not only a sport but his means of unarmed self-defense and trained in that way.
Jim
Migo,
I do believe you've missed the point of the thread, however, obviously if you headbutt as is done in Hollywood, you would suffer the said injuries, however, when done correctly the headbutt is not only extremly effective, but minimally dangerous to the headbutt-ER, it's a different story to the recipient of this tactic.
I do believe you've missed the point of the thread, however, obviously if you headbutt as is done in Hollywood, you would suffer the said injuries, however, when done correctly the headbutt is not only extremly effective, but minimally dangerous to the headbutt-ER, it's a different story to the recipient of this tactic.
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Not Dempsey or 20th century, but if you are interested in boxing as a means of self defence as well as manly sport previous to the present incarnation as a purely sporting form, I have several very good manuals on the topic at http://flybynight.korolev.com , check the manuals section for Defensive Exercises, Art And Practice Of Boxing, and Science Of Self Defence (hosted on a friend's site also worth checking out)
The vertical fist was used in the old days, but the strikes weren't focused on the bottom three knuckles. Instead it was the index and middle or else as close to all of them as you can practicaly get. The focus was on fast, penetrating blows to critical targets, wrestling and the gouging of eyes were integral to the art, but kicks, elbows and knees weren't, though they occasionaly saw use. BTW, footwork and slipping was being practiced long before the FMA/Boxing conspiracy theory allows for, centuries before, in fact, and activity was one of the 5 attributes most highly prized by the pugilist.
The rules argument is a little misleading. Every martial art that does sparring has a set of rules. Otherwise there is too much risk with little reward. It is knowing when rules apply and when they don't that is critical. Likewise, there are rules on the street. You had better know the difference between a life and death struggle and a friendly brawl. If you don't, you're in trouble either way.
Also, the introduction of boxing gloves and rules isn't what killed boxing. Boxing has had both from very early on, and remained very martial. Queensbury and American Fair Play did a lot to turn it into a more acceptable sport, as the art itself was frequently outlawed for the same reason dueling was. However, Broughton and London Prize Ring rules are much more flexible while allowing a reasonable ammount of flexibility, and there was an understanding of the difference between a friendly sparring match, a prizefight, and a streetfight.
Incidently, boxers used to practice methods of hardening their hands and drunk sailors were breaking boards before modern karate tournaments made it popular in the present era. There isn't so much danger in using the fist to strike the head if you know where you're striking, how to strike, and have conditioned yourself to it. Mike Tyson and the like breka their hands because they are used to punching in big weird gloves, and never recieved scientific training in how to use the bare fist. The fact that they are 1/8-ton giants capable of generating force far in excess of mere mortals probably doesn't help any, either. The gloves, or "mufflers", were worn to protect your sparring partner, not your fists.
As far as that goes, in a protracted prizefight between men of extraordinary strength and courage, you can and often do end up with swelling of the hands. Much emphasis is placed on hardening the soft tissues by striking the bag and applying tannic solutions, but it is still meat, it can swell and bruise. However, this is under the most extreme and protracted of conditions. The few hits it takes to stun a man before you throw him, or in some cases to just plain lay him flat, generaly have no meaningful effect on a good set of knuckles. The most reasonable argument I've heard for open palms is regarding a clenching instinct when drawing a pistol or on a shooting range leading to accidental discharges. Somehow I doubt that extended fingers are any less vulnerable to injury than clenched fingers...
The vertical fist was used in the old days, but the strikes weren't focused on the bottom three knuckles. Instead it was the index and middle or else as close to all of them as you can practicaly get. The focus was on fast, penetrating blows to critical targets, wrestling and the gouging of eyes were integral to the art, but kicks, elbows and knees weren't, though they occasionaly saw use. BTW, footwork and slipping was being practiced long before the FMA/Boxing conspiracy theory allows for, centuries before, in fact, and activity was one of the 5 attributes most highly prized by the pugilist.
The rules argument is a little misleading. Every martial art that does sparring has a set of rules. Otherwise there is too much risk with little reward. It is knowing when rules apply and when they don't that is critical. Likewise, there are rules on the street. You had better know the difference between a life and death struggle and a friendly brawl. If you don't, you're in trouble either way.
Also, the introduction of boxing gloves and rules isn't what killed boxing. Boxing has had both from very early on, and remained very martial. Queensbury and American Fair Play did a lot to turn it into a more acceptable sport, as the art itself was frequently outlawed for the same reason dueling was. However, Broughton and London Prize Ring rules are much more flexible while allowing a reasonable ammount of flexibility, and there was an understanding of the difference between a friendly sparring match, a prizefight, and a streetfight.
Incidently, boxers used to practice methods of hardening their hands and drunk sailors were breaking boards before modern karate tournaments made it popular in the present era. There isn't so much danger in using the fist to strike the head if you know where you're striking, how to strike, and have conditioned yourself to it. Mike Tyson and the like breka their hands because they are used to punching in big weird gloves, and never recieved scientific training in how to use the bare fist. The fact that they are 1/8-ton giants capable of generating force far in excess of mere mortals probably doesn't help any, either. The gloves, or "mufflers", were worn to protect your sparring partner, not your fists.
As far as that goes, in a protracted prizefight between men of extraordinary strength and courage, you can and often do end up with swelling of the hands. Much emphasis is placed on hardening the soft tissues by striking the bag and applying tannic solutions, but it is still meat, it can swell and bruise. However, this is under the most extreme and protracted of conditions. The few hits it takes to stun a man before you throw him, or in some cases to just plain lay him flat, generaly have no meaningful effect on a good set of knuckles. The most reasonable argument I've heard for open palms is regarding a clenching instinct when drawing a pistol or on a shooting range leading to accidental discharges. Somehow I doubt that extended fingers are any less vulnerable to injury than clenched fingers...
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Thanks, Snick and CJ!! I too have a great liking for old vertical-punch pugilism and headbutting. One good way I have found to develop all three of these weapons at once is to stand upside-down for a while supported on the knuckles of two closed fists and the crown of my skull.
Speaking of Muay Thai and headbutting, I was once shown a "Thai headbutt" by a guy who claimed to have learned it from his Muay Thai instructor. (Aren't headbutts illegal in Muay Thai?) From any sort of kickboxing or Muay Thai stance one suddenly turns one's head away from the opponent without turning one's body, and hits them with the back of your head. What do you think of this technique? (Seems to me it leaves the brainstem/back of neck open to elbow or other counter, but what do I know) What kinds of headbutts are your favorites? Please enlighten me.
Speaking of Muay Thai and headbutting, I was once shown a "Thai headbutt" by a guy who claimed to have learned it from his Muay Thai instructor. (Aren't headbutts illegal in Muay Thai?) From any sort of kickboxing or Muay Thai stance one suddenly turns one's head away from the opponent without turning one's body, and hits them with the back of your head. What do you think of this technique? (Seems to me it leaves the brainstem/back of neck open to elbow or other counter, but what do I know) What kinds of headbutts are your favorites? Please enlighten me.
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Boxing and Kick-Boxing are excellent.
But it's combat sports, not for the street.
Of course, it can be used in the street, it can be effective.
But if you want to train for the street, do not focus only on Boxing and/or Kickboxing. It's far not enough.
Thai Boxing is a good base for punching/kicking (more than Kick Boxing which has no elbow/knee... well sometimes it's a question of vocabulary and Thai Boxing is called Kick Boxing).
You need basics of grappling in case of. Basics of throwing/locking.
Kali can be good for stick/knife fighting.
But let's come back to punching/kicking arts: in the street you won't be on a ring facing a guy for a delimited time. It's totally a different concept. Nothing to do with sparring. In the street you have first to run. If you cannot, then you strike and you run. I mean it'll not be a match, I give you a punch, you give me a punch. It'll be extremly faster. The least time you spend with your opponent, the better you'll be.
As we usually says, athletism is the first martial arts
Guillaume
But it's combat sports, not for the street.
Of course, it can be used in the street, it can be effective.
But if you want to train for the street, do not focus only on Boxing and/or Kickboxing. It's far not enough.
Thai Boxing is a good base for punching/kicking (more than Kick Boxing which has no elbow/knee... well sometimes it's a question of vocabulary and Thai Boxing is called Kick Boxing).
You need basics of grappling in case of. Basics of throwing/locking.
Kali can be good for stick/knife fighting.
But let's come back to punching/kicking arts: in the street you won't be on a ring facing a guy for a delimited time. It's totally a different concept. Nothing to do with sparring. In the street you have first to run. If you cannot, then you strike and you run. I mean it'll not be a match, I give you a punch, you give me a punch. It'll be extremly faster. The least time you spend with your opponent, the better you'll be.
As we usually says, athletism is the first martial arts
Guillaume