Knife Design using the Golden ratio.

Fred.Rowe

Fred.Rowe

Joined
May 2, 2004
Messages
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How do you design a knife? Where do you start? Blade first, or handle first?
I find it confusing. How do you know.:confused:

Why do some knives look good and some don't? Some knives have a

beautiful flow to them. Why do they look that way?

Since I have designed and built furniture, houses, landscapes and the like,

I was made aware of the golden section or golden ratio early on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

When I took up knife making I found I could use this same ratio to design

the knives I wanted to make.

The ratio is 1.6180339887 to 1. For practical purposes it works out as:

3x5 or 8x13.

A bowie or fighter that is designed with an 8 inch blade and a 5 inch handle

will appeal to a majority of the people that view it because it is built around

this ratio. Five is to eight as eight is to thirteen. It looks natural to the

human eye.

If you design the ricasso, false edge, pin placement, ferrule to handle, butt

cap or any other knife feature, using this ratio, a majority of people will say
it is pleasing to look at even when drawn in two dimensions.

This ratio is used widely in construction, the arts and is found everywhere

in nature.

I believe accomplished makers use this ratio intuitively. People starting out

will improve the overall look of their knives by incorporating it in their

designs.

Just some food for thought, Fred
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans serif] The Golden Section is an ancient Greek concept. It is a formula developed in 600 B.C. by the Greek philosopher and mathematician Pythagoras to define the concept of natural harmony. The work began after Pythagoras decided random chance alone was not enough to account for the blending of strength and beauty found in plants, animals, and minerals. Pythagoras proved that the balance between form and function which is the basis of nature's designs is the result of precise mathematical relationships. [/FONT]
golden-section.gif
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans serif] In architecture, art, and the natural sciences, the concept has since become the foundation for achieving classic, pleasing proportions. The Greeks and Romans used the Golden Section to create architectural masterpieces, with the Parthenon as a classic example. [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans serif]Nearly 2,000 years later, the concept took hold in Europe where chartres and other Gothic cathedrals are highly ornate expressions of the Golden Section. During the Italian Renaissance, Leonardo Da Vinci brought the same formula to scuplture and painting. Many of his works, including the Mona Lisa, were composed with the aid of an invisible matrix set down according to the mathematical rules of the Golden Section. [/FONT]
 
It's Saturday. I'm not supposed to be learning. Just kidding.

Very cool. Gives you somthing to think about.

-Mike Sheffield
 
Fred's right and as I started looking at things around me, I noticed it everywhere. The trees in my back yard conform pretty well, but my dog is a mess. Lucy doesn't have a pleasing ratio on her anywhere... :D (Lucy herself would agree if she knew what I was talking about.)

What's really fun is to get out your calipers and mark off a couple of your designs. Your favorites will come out pretty close to the golden ratio. Like any other rule, you can get interesting results by breaking it selectively.

Thanks Fred, this is always good to be reminded of.
 
I did a math paper on the golden ratio awhile ago. It was amazing the things that I read about.

I would be interested in seeing a knife designed to actually conform to it as close as possible. Probably will end up making one if I ever get started :P
 
DReicht said:
I did a math paper on the golden ratio awhile ago. It was amazing the things that I read about.

I would be interested in seeing a knife designed to actually conform to it as close as possible. Probably will end up making one if I ever get started :P
Click to expand...

It's more amazing; the things that have been written, than the things you, may have read.


I would again say, most accomplished makers knives will conform to the golden ratio, whether the maker is conscious of it or not.
It is almost "hardwired" in someone who uses it as a standard design tool.

Fred
 
There really is something to it, but in all honesty, I think for a lot of people starting this craft they'd be better off to just get a good flowing profile.

Many folks neglect to stop and just hold a pattern up to a light and look at its silhouette.

I see a LOT of knives where the handle is NOT the same width as the ricasso. I think it is a rare occurrence that you can make a knife like that and have it flow.

Sometimes people are afraid to make an aggressive tip as well, and end up with a fancy looking butter knife.

Don’t get me wrong Fred, I think this is a great thing to bring up... but I can see a lot of people getting hung up on the technical detail behind it rather than just sketching out a knife that has a gentle line flowing around it.
 
I was made aware of the golden section or golden ratio early on.
Click to expand...

Fred,
I feel this is one of the most important aspects of life in general.
It works well for knives also. ;)
 
Mr. Wheeler,

I'm not quite certain what you meant about the handle not being the same width as the ricasso. Could you clarify? Maybe post a pic?

As for the Golden Ratio, I've been looking at most of my blades, and they're damn close or right there. Although some of the smaller blades seem to have the ratio in reverse - handle longer than blade. Good thread, something I've been doing without realizing it.
 
NickWheeler said:
There really is something to it, but in all honesty, I think for a lot of people starting this craft they'd be better off to just get a good flowing profile.

Many folks neglect to stop and just hold a pattern up to a light and look at its silhouette.

I see a LOT of knives where the handle is NOT the same width as the ricasso. I think it is a rare occurrence that you can make a knife like that and have it flow.

Sometimes people are afraid to make an aggressive tip as well, and end up with a fancy looking butter knife.

Don’t get me wrong Fred, I think this is a great thing to bring up... but I can see a lot of people getting hung up on the technical detail behind it rather than just sketching out a knife that has a gentle line flowing around it.
Click to expand...

The best way for a budding knife maker to put it to use would be the blade handle ratio, a five inch handle with a three inch blade.
Put your curved lines in between. Knives is about proportion, 3 to 5 works.

Some people have no natural sense of proportion, for those folks, this is a god send.
For those people with that sense; they do it naturally and have no need for this information.

In reality, I like to keep it simple. Drawing something out helps to make it real in the mind. I like to work from a very simple drawing, add the frills as its built.

Fred
 
"It's more amazing; the things that have been written, than the things you, may have read."

:-) I don't understand what you're trying to say?
 
The golden Mean or Golden Ratio ( Not the same as the Golden Rule!) is a fundamental underpinning of much in design and engineering. To an extent it is the core metric of ergonomics as well. When it comes to knife design it may indeed be used to formulate an aesthetic ratio but perhaps not ideal functional proportions. The reason for this are:
1) Functionality of a knife as a tool is related to anthropometrics not aesthetics. That is, the knife as a tool should be designed for EACH user, taking thier individual body measurements and proportions into consideration. Japanese blades have been designed this way for Centuries.
2) The Golden Mean is a formula, like the Fibonacci sequence that influences modularity and aesthetic proportions.Thus it's ideal for designs that divide space or volume into units that balance and mesh well, particularly rectilinear lines. The Fibonacci alludes to curvilinear mathemetical reduction of spacial efficiency that also happens to influence aesthetic sensibilities. Neither formula takes motion and human mechanics into account. They are therefore, static standards.
So you can build a knife using the golden mean as a guide, to arrive at an aesthetically pleasing 'work', but it may not necessarily be efficient at task completion. To do both, you'd have to deviate from the Formula while introducing the anthropometrics. That results in what we call ergonomics and as you might imagine, it's a high art of the 20th Century!
What most people fail to realise is that human sensibilities are components of a 'larger design', which is why we find conformity to the mathematical sequences so 'pleasing' ! To understand what makes for an effective tool, we must look at the interface between the person and the tool.
 
Excellent explanation, Moodino! I thoroughly enjoyed that. Thank you. :)
 
Interesting subject.........
I like a post that makes you think.
Mace
 
DReicht said:
"It's more amazing; the things that have been written, than the things you, may have read."

:-) I don't understand what you're trying to say?
Click to expand...

No cryptic message intended.

I say the same thing to myself. It keeps me interested in reading. I know there are more wondrous things to read than I will ever have time to consume.

Fred
 
Thanks Fred and Moondino! Glad some makers are paying attention. So a side note, a 5" handle, and a 3" blade is just plain butt ugly. I always thought what Bob did when he balance the equation by blending the formula worked well. In fact, probably the most popular modern knife of all time. The Dropped Hunter. Handle 4 1/2"x 3 1/2" to 3 3/4" Blade. Works up to a 4" blade before we need to stretch the handle to look right. The chute Knife is an excellent example. A favorite of many. Mike Lovett
 
Michael Lovett said:
Thanks Fred and Moondino! Glad some makers are paying attention. So a side note, a 5" handle, and a 3" blade is just plain butt ugly. I always thought what Bob did when he balance the equation by blending the formula worked well. In fact, probably the most popular modern knife of all time. The Dropped Hunter. Handle 4 1/2"x 3 1/2" to 3 3/4" Blade. Works up to a 4" blade before we need to stretch the handle to look right. The chute Knife is an excellent example. A favorite of many. Mike Lovett
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Michael,

I think some people who read this, thought I meant you should sit down with a ruler and marker and lay out a knife to build, which is far from the truth.
The GR is just one of many design tools that comes into play when building a knife.
Instead of being a hard set rule I use it as a starting point or when looking for a dimension for a visual aspect of knife or sheath.
The first rule, for me, is form follows function.
Thanks for your feedback, Fred
 
It not only applies to knifemaking and design but also in architecture, landscaping AND the shape of a woman. Not only their shape but the proportions of facial features as well. Think about it...

Sorry for the ever so slight departure...maybe this is destined for Whine & Cheese now.

Craig
 
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